Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Doug Shaver · 03-18-2008, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Now is that you know about Jesus Christ, and that is why you believe there is evidence for Christianity in the first century?

No, I'm not claiming to know anything about Jesus Christ.

You claimed that I knew there was no evidence for first-century Christianity. In so doing, you contradicted my assertion of a belief that there is evidence.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-18-2008, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

But where does Socrates/Plato use the word cult in Phaedo 118 or speak of Ascelpius as having one.

If Ascelpius is being honored, is it not reasonable to presume the existence of a cult that honors Ascelpius ?

Could you define "honoured"? And could you then show that according to your fefinition of that word, this is what Socrates is preseted as doing in Phaedo 118?

And where is the evidence for a cult of Asclepius (e.g. an altar dedicated to him, a group of therapeutae, an Asclepium) in Athens in 399 BCE?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-18-2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

But where does Socrates/Plato use the word cult in Phaedo 118 or speak of Ascelpius as having one. I see nothing in “ὠ̂ Κρίτων, ἔφη, τῳ̂ ̓Ασκληπιῳ̂ ὀφείλομεν ἀλεκτρυόνα: ἀλλὰ ἀπόδοτε καὶ μὴ ἀμελήσητε.” that can be adduced as evidence that "he" does. Could you point me to what it is within this text that does what you say it does?

What word would you use for the "religion" of the major Asclepius temple at Aegae before the 4th century? I have used the tem "cult". What term would you use to describe this phenomenom?

What phenomenon in particular are you talking about? What actually went on in the Asclepium at Aegae in Socrates' time (5th century BCE)?

Quote:

And did Plato think that Ascelpius was an Egyptian god? Do we find any evidence before Melantho that among Greeks Asclepius was thought of as other than Greek?

Quote:

Michael Grant - 'The Rise of the Greeks (or via: amazon.co.uk)'
makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes
and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios'
was the main intellectual belief during
the time of Pythagoras.

And this proves what about Socrates/Plato?

Can we have the actual quote from Grant, please -- or at least the page number in Rise of the Greeks on which this "note" appears? I have this book in front of me right now and I can find no such "note" within it.

Quote:

The physicians of Egypt were well regarded by the greeks.
Imhotep is ancient.

Actually, this belief in this Imhotep is, I believe, not attested until the 5th or 6th century BCE.

Quote:

Asclepia were not unlike "public hospitals".

So .. they were not "temples"?

Jeffrey

Ben C Smith · 03-18-2008, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Actually, this belief in this Imhotep is, I believe, is not attested until the 5th or 6th century BCE.

It is also attested in the movie The Mummy. (Hope this helps.

)

Ben.

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-18-2008, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Actually, this belief in this Imhotep is, I believe, is not attested until the 5th or 6th century BCE.

It is also attested in the movie The Mummy. (Hope this helps.

)

Yes, that must be where Pete got his information.

And as for Trivia, it's interesting to note that the "physician's" name was changed in all of the Mummy films after the Karloff one to Kharis.

Jeffrey

mountainman · 03-18-2008, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

What word would you use for the "religion" of the major Asclepius temple at Aegae before the 4th century? I have used the tem "cult". What term would you use to describe this phenomenom?

What phenomenon in particular are you talking about? What actually went on in the Asclepium at Aegae in Socrates' time (5th century BCE)?

My "fourth century" was CE (not BCE) since we are dealing with NT chronology, and that this temple was destroyed by Constantine c.324 CE. I am talking about the phenomenom of pagan temple services for the period from 25 CE through to the year 325 CE, and the nature and structure of the pagan priesthood.

Quote:

Can we have the actual quote from Grant, please -- or at least the page number in Rise of the Greeks on which this "note" appears? I have this book in front of me right now and I can find no such "note" within it.

Actually, this belief in this Imhotep is, I believe, not attested until the 5th or 6th century BCE.

It serves only to show the Egyptian influence (via physicians) in Asclepius. The issues to be addressed (re: NT studies and Asclepius) are those of the first four centuries CE.

Quote:

Asclepia were not unlike "public hospitals".

So .. they were not "temples"?

Temples and shrines to Asclepius are described as being scattered all across the Roman empire. I expect the small ones were unattended from time to time whereas the large ones, such as that at Aegae and Rome, were regarded as very popular. AKAIK some were associated with gymnasia and libraries, and were staffed (how I dont know) by therapeutae.

Alexander the Great is somewhere reported to have visited one, and to have left behind his breastplate there as a votive offering to Asclepius.

Best wishes

Pete Brown

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-18-2008, 02:36 PM

I'll try this again, since it was ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

And did Plato think that Ascelpius was an Egyptian god? Do we find any evidence before Melantho that among Greeks Asclepius was thought of as other than Greek?

Michael Grant - 'The Rise of the Greeks (or via: amazon.co.uk)'
makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes
and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios'
was the main intellectual belief during
the time of Pythagoras.

Can we have the actual quote from Grant, please -- or at least the page number in Rise of the Greeks on which this "note" appears? I have this book in front of me right now and I can find no such "note" within it.

Jeffrey

spamandham · 03-18-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Could you define "honoured"?

In this case, it refers to the sacrificing of a cock, or more specifically, the request that a cock be sacrificed to Asclepius.

Now that the definition is out of the way, would you mind responding to my question?

Jeffrey Gibson · 03-18-2008, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

Could you define "honoured"?

In this case, it refers to the sacrificing of a cock, or more specifically, the request that a cock be sacrificed to Asclepius.

Now that the definition is out of the way, would you mind responding to my question?

I don't see that you've actually given a definition, especially since you haven't shown me that this was anything that would bring honour to Asclepius. But even so, all the above would mean is that sacrificing a rooster (apparently as a thank offering) was something that Socrates thought should be done in the light of his apparent belief that death is a cure for life and that in his death he was "experiencing" a healing. It hardly proves your non sequitur that because Socrates thinks something, we can then presume that there was an established body of Asclepian theraputae in Athens or a known and particular set of prescribed practices and rites that were peculiar to the "worship" of Ascelpius, let alone that these were regularly engaged in.

Now, will you answer my question? What hard evidence have we for an Asclepium and for an established body of Asclepian therapeutae in Athens in 399 BCE?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey

Toto · 03-18-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Gibson

I'll try this again, since it was ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Michael Grant - 'The Rise of the Greeks (or via: amazon.co.uk)' makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras.

Can we have the actual quote from Grant, please -- or at least the page number in Rise of the Greeks on which this "note" appears? I have this book in front of me right now and I can find no such "note" within it.

Jeffrey

oops - google is a tattletale.

Robert Baird

Quote:

{But Michael Grant, in his well-respected 'The Rise of the Greeks' makes note that the cult of Thoth/Hermes and its equivalent 'Imhotep/Asklepios' was the main intellectual belief during the time of Pythagoras. Others know Pythagoras as a Therapeutae ['Dead Sea Scrolls Deception (or via: amazon.co.uk)' by Baigent and Leigh, as well as Rabbis galore.] which is the origin of the Essenes that Gardner tells us are an outgrowth of 'The Great White (not racial) Brotherhood of Master Craftsmen'.

This parapgraph or a close paraphrase occurs multiple times on the web, always associated with Robert Bruce Baird (except for mountainman's site.)

Robert Bruce Baird is a self-published author, or you can buy his collected works on Amazon (or via: amazon.co.uk).

Quote:

"Robert Baird's work is profound in the extreme. His links and lateral way of thinking are enough to put Einstein to shame. His scope and range of work far exceeds anybody I know and he deserves credit for his work in uncovering the secrets of the ancients.

Sample his articles here

Quote:

When the Rothschilds fund the Illuminati or the translation of the Corpus Hermeticum that they put their clan name on the cover of (Cosimo De Medicis put the De Brix name on it) why does this go unreported in academia?

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