Freethought & Rationalism Archive

[true] · 04-27-2005, 11:31 PM

I was shown this verse:

Quote:

Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [b]

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

Now the Christain claimed this is talking about jesus (which i bolded the parts that pointed to Jesus).. He also claimed this was written 400+ years before jesus was even around!

Explain this one guys, I've been searching for an answer, nothing so far.

drosophila · 04-28-2005, 12:00 AM

Try this thread.

Toto · 04-28-2005, 12:15 AM

Short answer: the writers who created the story about Jesus Christ took their inspiration from Isaiah 53 and other key passages of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Gawdzila · 04-28-2005, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Short answer: the writers who created the story about Jesus Christ took their inspiration from Isaiah 53 and other key passages of the Hebrew Scriptures.

Quite so. It has not been adequately shown that Jesus ever even
existed. The only mention of him is in the Bible, really. One theist
told me that "there's like, a 5000-page collection of scrolls called the
Scrolls of Josephus that talk all about him!". ... so I looked it up.

In all the pages, there are two brief mentions of a person named Jesus.
One said that there was a guy named Jesus who had a brother named
Paul, and had no further information than that. The other was a big
paragraph about him that was later revealed to be a forgery inserted
by a priest hundreds of years later.

In other words, the only proof for Jesus' existence is the book that
touts his religion. Would you call that credible?

Vorkosigan · 04-28-2005, 02:01 AM

"Scrolls of Josephus." Think you've confused "The Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus

Kirby's Flavius Josephus on ECW

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html

is a good place to start.

As for Isaiah 53, it contains no prophecies of Jesus at all. Everything is subjectively backread into the "prophecy" to turn it into a prophecy of Jesus.

Wallener · 04-28-2005, 07:15 AM

The problem is that if Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy, it directly conflicts with all the other Messianic prophecies and the entire prophetic structure of the Jewish Texts collapses and Christianity ends up completely without foundation.

Amaleq13 · 04-28-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [true]

Explain this one guys, I've been searching for an answer, nothing so far.

I can only assume you haven't asked any Jews how they understand this passage. I think they would tell you that the "individual" referenced is a personification of Israel.

Gawdzila · 04-28-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

"Scrolls of Josephus." Think you've confused "The Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus

Mmm, sorry if I caused confusion. That is indeed the name of the work,
the name I used is what was recited to me by said theist. Thank you for
the correction

Zeichman · 04-28-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawdzila

Quite so. It has not been adequately shown that Jesus ever even
existed. The only mention of him is in the Bible, really. One theist
told me that "there's like, a 5000-page collection of scrolls called the
Scrolls of Josephus that talk all about him!". ... so I looked it up.

In all the pages, there are two brief mentions of a person named Jesus.
One said that there was a guy named Jesus who had a brother named
Paul, and had no further information than that. The other was a big
paragraph about him that was later revealed to be a forgery inserted
by a priest hundreds of years later.

In other words, the only proof for Jesus' existence is the book that
touts his religion. Would you call that credible?

Um... his brother was James, not Paul. And very few scholars dismiss the second paragraph altogether. However, it is virtually unanimous that there were interpolations into it. I'd reccomend checking the link that Vork pointed out already.

Vorkosigan · 04-28-2005, 06:29 PM

Looks like our friend [true] was a drive-by

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04-28-2005, 12:00 AM	#2
drosophila Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 37	Try this thread.

04-28-2005, 12:15 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Short answer: the writers who created the story about Jesus Christ took their inspiration from Isaiah 53 and other key passages of the Hebrew Scriptures.

04-28-2005, 02:01 AM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	"Scrolls of Josephus." Think you've confused "The Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus Kirby's Flavius Josephus on ECW http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/josephus.html is a good place to start. As for Isaiah 53, it contains no prophecies of Jesus at all. Everything is subjectively backread into the "prophecy" to turn it into a prophecy of Jesus.

04-28-2005, 07:15 AM	#6
Wallener Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver Posts: 1,043	The problem is that if Isaiah 53 is a Messianic prophecy, it directly conflicts with all the other Messianic prophecies and the entire prophetic structure of the Jewish Texts collapses and Christianity ends up completely without foundation.

04-28-2005, 06:29 PM	#10
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Looks like our friend [true] was a drive-by

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