Freethought & Rationalism Archive

triffidfood · 02-24-2006, 05:44 AM

I found the following in a response on another topic @ IIDB:

Quote:

... many Roman/Hellenic period fictions are known, essentially novels. Indeed, the Gospel story bears a close resemblence to some of them, for apparently dead people whose tombs were empty was a common theme in ancient fiction. See, for example, the ancient novel by Chariton called Chaereas and Callirhoe, where the heroine is apparently killed by her husband, who goes and sits by her tomb and astonishingly, finds it empty. The heroine later confesses that she had "died and come to life again." The account itself contains numerous close parallels to the Gospels, especially John 20:1-10. Later in the novel the husband is crucified, but gets a reprieve as he is mounting the cross. Similarly, Iamblichus' Babylonian Story contains an empty tomb. In Xenophon's Ephesian Tale, another early novel, the heroine is poisoned and descends into deathlike torpor. She awakens in the tomb and is carried off by pirates (another empty tomb motif). Meanwhile her beloved goes through a series of misadventures and winds up on -- you guessed it -- a cross, from which he is miraculously saved by a giant wind that blows the cross down. In Tatius' Leucippe and Clitophon, the heroine is twice apparently disemboweled and has to fake her own death by lying in a coffin, from which she rises. Similar motifs are found in many ancient novels.

(From http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...73#post1644673, originally posted by Vorkosigan: I've added emphasis to some of the names & titles above).

I thought the above was really interesting (i.e. the cultural context in which 'Christianity' arose) .. the post from which I copied it was a reply to someone claiming that (essentially) there was no such thing as Roman 'fiction' or Roman 'novels'.

Anyway, I know it's easy enough to search Google for more about the authors & plays mentioned by Vorkosigan above, but does anyone else have any other examples, or any more thoughts about the significance (or otherwise) of popular Roman culture in relation to the origns of the Christ stories?

This seems like an interesting & useful line of investigation for coming up with original discussion points, for next time our friendly JW's (or even not quite so friendly Mormons :devil1: ) come round....

Steven Avery · 02-24-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triffidfood

Anyway, I know it's easy enough to search Google for more about the authors & plays mentioned by Vorkosigan above, but does anyone else have any other examples, or any more thoughts about the significance (or otherwise) of popular Roman culture in relation to the origns of the Christ stories? This seems like an interesting & useful line of investigation

Yes, an enriching enterprise, it even deserves its own name. Perhaps...

"Drama-mining" or
"Play-mining"

"Look, there's an 'empty tomb' "

Be sure to avoid messy little things like context.

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/classi.../CHARITON.HTML
Synopsis of the Plot of Chariton's Chaireas and Callirhoe
"When disgruntled suitors cause Chaireas to believe Callirhoe is having an affair, Chaireas kicks her so savagely that she falls into a coma. Callirhoe is lavishly buried in a state funeral. The graverobber Theron rescues her, takes her to Ionia, and sells her to Dionysios, the richest man in Miletus."

Shalom,
Steven Avery
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic

triffidfood · 02-24-2006, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Be sure to avoid messy little things like context.

Actually, context is precisely what I think is interesting here.. i.e., what was the cultural context in which the early Christ/ Jesus myths emerged? Were stories about apparent (okay, apparent) resurrections from empty tombs, or crucifixion, or other 'Christian' motifs part of the (popular) culture of the Roman world at the time?

I've really no idea, but I think it is interesting to consider. Not least since the 'argument' that 'people then [in the first century, in the Roman world at the time] wouldn't have made these sorts of things up, would they?' is one I've had put to me by people/ by theistic friends (well, sort of friends

) in the past. And actually, at the time, I wasn't sure, so it is interesting (and possibly even instructive) to think about the cultural context in which Christianity emerged, I think.

Roger Pearse · 02-24-2006, 02:03 PM

Wouldn't it be better if someone scanned the out-of-copyright English translation and shoved it on the web?

Main Author: Chariton, Aphrodisiensis
Title Details: The Loves of Chæreas and Callirrhoe. Written originally in Greek by Chariton ... Now first translated into English.
Publisher: London : T. Becket & P. A. De Hondt, 1764.
Physical desc.: 2 vol. ; 16 o.

Much more useful to us all than some study of 'context and mythology', however well done.

There is also:

Main Author: Chariton, Aphrodisiensis
Title Details: Chariton's Chaereas and Callirhoe / translated from the Greek by Warren E. Blake
Publisher: Ann Arbor, Mich. & London, 1939
Physical desc.: 8vo

which is probably in copyright, and a still later version in the Loeb series from 1995 which certainly is.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Vorkosigan · 02-24-2006, 03:26 PM

triffid,

that's only the tip of the iceberg. I suggest you get hold of the Stephens and Winkler collection of ancient Greek fiction, and carefully read the novels there. You will see many many affinities between the Gospels and Greek fiction. Despite the different social goals, they both partake of a common pool of fiction-writing. The Gospels are Hellenistic fiction.

Vorkosigan

Toto · 02-24-2006, 03:43 PM

Ancient Greek Novels: The Fragments ed by Susan A. Stephens and John J. Winkler is not currently available on Amazon (check a library). There are reviews here and here.

02-24-2006, 02:03 PM	#4
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	Wouldn't it be better if someone scanned the out-of-copyright English translation and shoved it on the web? Main Author: Chariton, Aphrodisiensis Title Details: The Loves of Chæreas and Callirrhoe. Written originally in Greek by Chariton ... Now first translated into English. Publisher: London : T. Becket & P. A. De Hondt, 1764. Physical desc.: 2 vol. ; 16 o. Much more useful to us all than some study of 'context and mythology', however well done. There is also: Main Author: Chariton, Aphrodisiensis Title Details: Chariton's Chaereas and Callirhoe / translated from the Greek by Warren E. Blake Publisher: Ann Arbor, Mich. & London, 1939 Physical desc.: 8vo which is probably in copyright, and a still later version in the Loeb series from 1995 which certainly is. All the best, Roger Pearse

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02-24-2006, 03:26 PM	#5
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	triffid, that's only the tip of the iceberg. I suggest you get hold of the Stephens and Winkler collection of ancient Greek fiction, and carefully read the novels there. You will see many many affinities between the Gospels and Greek fiction. Despite the different social goals, they both partake of a common pool of fiction-writing. The Gospels are Hellenistic fiction. Vorkosigan

02-24-2006, 03:43 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Ancient Greek Novels: The Fragments ed by Susan A. Stephens and John J. Winkler is not currently available on Amazon (check a library). There are reviews here and here.

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