Dark Virtue

Eh?

It says it RIGHT THERE, "I make peace, and create evil".

CREATE. Not PERMIT. CREATE.

EDIT TO ADD...

Dude, this is from the greek lexicon. The word create is bara' which is used as follows:

1) to create, shape, form

a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)

1) of heaven and earth

2) of individual man

3) of new conditions and circumstances

4) of transformations

b) (Niphal) to be created

1) of heaven and earth

2) of birth

3) of something new

4) of miracles

c) (Piel)

1) to cut down

2) to cut out

There is no mistaking this. There is no atheist agenda.

It's from your own bible!

Deus Ex

If God created everything then God created evil and sin-supposedly for a greater good.

show_no_mercy

The verse quite obviously says "create evil". 1,000 years before the KJV of Isaiah 45:7 existed, the LXX reads κτιζων κακα which is "builds [bad, evil]".

There's nothing about any "greater good" in that verse. This "greater good" concept is Christian apologetics.

Sheshbazzar

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and YHWH hath not worked it? " Amos 3:6

Ahh, the question then is....Who is it alone, that has an irresistible plan, and is thus ultimately responsible for all and everything that transpires?

Is it the Gawd YHWH? or is it Satan? that causes or withholds the rains? in so doing making men to either bless or to curse?
Whom is it then that holds such great Power? only with the mantle of responsibility comes a right claim to honor.

Claiming Satan to be alone responsible for evil, exalts Satan to holding that mantle of responsibility, and thus worthy of honor, having power exceeding that of YHWH.

Satan outmaneuvers and outsmarts YHWH? thereby controlling human destiny?
WHAT? is YHWH but a powerless pawn in Satan's hands to be so easily manipulated?

To whom is it, that your arguments 'Satan works it' bestow honor?

IBelieveInHymn

Amos 3:6 translates into the sufferings which sinful man experiences through the permissive will of God are presented, as elsewhere in the Old Testament, simply as caused by the Lord.

I never said God will not punish the wicked and evildoers. God's choice of Israel brought its own responsibility.

ChristMyth

Okay, I'll bite.

IBelieveInHymn, let's assume that your interpertation is correct and God permits evil (despite the verse stating otherwise).

Please reconcile this with a beneviolent God. If God is supposed to be all loving and hate evil (a.k.a sin) then why permit evil in the first place? How is God's passivity towards evil not make him just as guilty as if he created it himself?

Let's look at an analogy: Let's say that I know that person A is going to torture and kill person B. Now, I have the power and opportunity to stop person A from doing this but, instead, I do nothing. How am I not just as responsible for the torment and death of person B as person A?

Johnny Skeptic

That is ridiculous since today there is widespread disagreement even among conservative Christians regarding all kinds of issues, such as the flood, the age of the earth, and theistic evolution.

You are obviously not aware that, just like everyone else, you are a product of chance and circumstance. If you had been born in say 1700 A.D., assuming that you had been a Christian, it is probable that you would have endorsed slavery, colonization, and the subjugation of women, even though you now reject those things. Even today, if at birth you had been taken as a newborn baby and had raised by Muslim terrorists in Iran, it is probable that you would be a Muslim today.

Are you aware that there are interpolations and other inconsistencies in the Bible?

Dark Virtue

IBIH, you've been proven wrong. Without a shadow of a doubt.

You said yourself, you admit when you're wrong. You're wrong.

The problem is, this hits way too close to home. We're starting to chip away at your core beliefs.

Look at ALL the verses to the contrary. Why do you keep saying it's black when it is most definitely white?

Amaleq13

Yes, it explicitly states that God created evil.

Where do you find the word bara' defined to mean "permits"? It doesn't appear to be used with that meaning anywhere else in the Bible. It is used to refer to creating or cutting down.

You'll need more than your faith to sustain this claim.

I was not aware that an atheist is responsible for the King James version of the Bible. If you aren't going to deal honestly with the text, why do you bother?

Sai

its a simple principle that that which is rigid is also brittle. We have here a person of utterly rigid belief. If a single chip was knocked out of the edifice he has set up, the whole thing will shatter.

Even extends to things that dont matter, like the rivet is dry /river is not dry.
he found a way to say that its the same thing.

That is why for example, they must hold that the book is inerrant, but find endless excuses (always putting it off on others) to explain that they are always right.

its like with the question about pi equals 3. its just plain wrong, and impossible to derive the numbers that they give. But, its still correct anyway.

For Lo! to admit that an approximation MEANS that there is an error would be to admit error in perfection which would be to allow a crack and down comes the whole brittle belief system.

If the bible said 2 plus 2 is 5 then the rigid mind will say that ok, in those days 2 plus 2 was 5. Anything to avoid reality.