Sheshbazzar

Another long post with enough mistaken assumptions and false conclusions to choke an elephant.
I will address a few statements however,
This paragraph is nonsensical, the first sentence being contradicted by the second, if the point is that they DO obey the Law, Then whether they "DO or DON'T obey the Law fully or properly" IS most certainly relevant. More on this obedience further on.
As you avoided answering this simple question before, I'll give you another chance, you may as well give a straightforward and unambiguous answer, because the question will be repeated until you do.

Perverting my statements again noah, I made no such "concession" that YHOSHUA/YHWH is not perfect and benevolent. my statement was only about what men have done to The Books.

As for your question, "Why......? " So that His words COULD be perverted by them whom through a lack of the seeking for, and the giving of, True Love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, would abuse His words to form their own strong delusions, that being deceived by the lying words that they, and their fathers before them had composed, they should be destroyed.
But The Love of YHWH rejoices in mercy and forgiveness towards as many as believe on Him, both the Jew and the Gentile, together shall be called "His people, whom He has called, and whom He has chosen" These are they that follow Him from the heart, and who's persuasions are not written in old scrolls and books, but upon their hearts, and minds, and conscience.
Burn and destroy every document ever written, or legislate the contents of your "versions" to conform to the wickedness of your hearts, But the faith of the faithful will ever shine, and YHWH will yet deliver ALL whosoever have put their trust in Him, yes, even the millions whom have never learned to read or write, but only believed, and 'Awmeind' the Word which they heard being preached and entering into their hearts.
And you have yet to prove that any man, "Jewish", "xian" or otherwise
may actually DO and perform the Law as specified in Leviticus 27
For the hardness of your heart. there can be no such thing as "varying degrees" , ALL is ALL that is acceptable under The Law.
Paul never canceled any of YHWH's Laws.
No

Chidori

Bookmarked this thread for reference. Wow, Noah!

Gamera

There is no doubt that Christians are not under the Law.

The fulfillment Jesus speaks of was making the Law irrelevant through faith. The Law is eternal only in the sense that if you want to try to follow it, you can, but if you do, you'll fail and be judged. That's the point of the Law from a Christian perspective. Here are the verses. They are unambiguous.

Romans 7:4 - Likewise, my
brethren, you have died to the law
through the body of Christ, so that
you may belong to another, to him
who has been raised from the dead
in order that we may bear fruit for
God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are
discharged from the law, dead to
that which held us captive, so that
we serve not under the old written
code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Galatians 2:19 - For I through the
law died to the law, that I might live
to God.

Galatians 3:10 - For all who rely
on works of the law are under a
curse; for it is written, "Cursed be
every one who does not abide by all
things written in the book of the law,
and do them."

Galatians 3:23 - Now before
faith came, we were confined under
the law, kept under restraint until
faith should be revealed

Galatians 5:4 - You are severed
from Christ, you who would be
justified by the law; you have fallen
away from grace.

Galatians 5:18 - But if you are
led by the Spirit you are not under
the law.

Ephesians 2:15 - by abolishing
in his flesh the law of
commandments and ordinances,
that he might create in himself one
new man in place of the two, so
making peace,

Hebrews 7:12 -
For when there
is a change in the priesthood, there
is necessarily a change in the law
as well.

Hebrews 10:1 - For since the
law has but a shadow of the good
things to come instead of the true
form of these realities, it can never,
by the same sacrifices which are
continually offered year after year,
make perfect those who draw near

James 1:25 - But he who looks
into the perfect law, the law of
liberty, and perseveres, being no
hearer that forgets but a doer that
acts, he shall be blessed in his
doing.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.

Gawen

The Jews were already under 'faith'.


Isn't that quaint? What a nice way to avoid all of those....Laws...and find an easier way to salvation.

noah

First Sheshbazaar tried to argue Paul was the reason he disobeyed JC/Yahweh's Laws. That didn't work. Then Sheshbazaar tried to argue some obscure little episode in Acts justified his disobedience of JC/Yahweh's Laws. That didn't work. Then he tried to argue that Moses' temporary lifting of the Law with Yahweh's approval was the reason he disobeyed JC/Yahweh's Laws. That didn't work. Now Sheshbazaar is trying the "He does it too" argument accusing Rabbis of things Sheshbazaar can't prove they did.

Sheshbazaar is missing or ignoring the following points. All of which add up to the fact that JC/Yahweh's Laws must be obeyed as the key to salvation and that Paul's doctrine of faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice is demonstrably false:

1) None of Sheshbazaar's arguments or tactics have thus far worked

2) Using the "He does (or did) it too" argument is fruitless - some would say ridiculous especially when you can not back it up.

3) None of his arguments are supported anywhere in scripture except by those people who are in violation of JC/Yahweh's Laws themselves.

4) JC/Yahweh is the final word on their Laws. It shouldn't take a bible critic to point that out.

5) The Laws of JC/Yahweh are immutable, permanent and perfect. They are etched on the hearts of men. The new covenant which JC/Yahweh issued in Jer 31:31-34 makes this perfectly clear.

6) There is no mention of Paul or faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice anywhere in JC/Yahweh's Laws nor is there any mention of Paul or faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice cancelling JC/Yahweh's Laws at any time.

7) All of JC's remarks and declarations in the New Testament regarding his Laws are consistent with everything he said when he first laid down his Laws in the so-called Old Testament.

8) JC himself never says "Believe in me as a human blood sacrifice instead of following my Laws."

9) The Book of Revelation, perhaps the most powerful, definitive and influential book in the bible states on no less than three occasions that Keeping JC/Yahweh's commandments are the key to salvation. See Rev.22:14-15, 14:12 and Revelation 12:17.

10) JC/Yahweh himself describes his Laws as the key to salvation on many occasions, for example: Psa 119:106-118, Psa 119:142-147, Eccl 12:13, Ezekiel 18:20-21, Matt. 16:27, Matthew 19:16 and Mathew 5:17-20 to name just a few.

11) The very idea of a human blood sacrifice violates JC/Yahwehs' Laws. Under JC/Yahweh's Laws, see Jer. 31:29-30, Deut. 24:16 and 2 Kings 14:6 for example, no one can die to atone for the sins of another. Each is judged according to his or her own deeds. Period.

12) The common Christian refrain that JC/Yahweh's Laws are impossible to obey is blatantly false. There are numerous places in the bible where people are described or referred to as righteous and just etc. for example Elizabeth and Zacharias, Asa, see also Job, Adam, Deuteronomy 16:19 Deuteronomy 25:1 Matthew 9:13

13) JC/Yahweh would have to be either naive or terrible beyond words to issue Laws to their children which can not be kept, especially since those Laws are the key to salvation.

Actually it is not relevant. Not at all. The subject as you will recall is whether xians are under the Law. The answer is yes. JC/Yahweh make perfectly clear over and over again that their Laws are in effect forever. You have done nothing to disprove this except blame Rabbis and accuse Rabbis of things that you can not prove they did.
In addition, you have yet to prove that Rabbis have reversed or changed the Laws.
You have not told me how the Rabbis distortion of the Law (if there are any) changes the fact that you have to obey the Law.
You did not respond to the article I posted or the point I made preceding my link to that article.
You are not able to cite anything from the Talmud to prove your point, your accusation that Rabbis have mutilated the Law, yet you keep making the same accusation over and over again citing nothing in support of your accusation.
Please roll out the Talmud and show me where Rabbis have reversed the Laws.
Then please tell me what it has to do with your obeisance to the Law.
If you are so concerned about the state of the Law you just have to go back to the OT where JC/Yahweh's Law stands unadorned for you to follow.
Your reasoning is patently childish. You're actually trying to argue that you get to break the Law because someone else (as you see it) broke the Law.

I'm not sure what you're trying to set up here. But repeating broken arguments that expose your intellectual consistency as I'm sure you will agree is counter-productive.
You have gone to great lengths to villainize the Rabbis (without any proof at all) for perverting Yahweh's Laws. Yet here you are citing to me from the very Rabbis who you claim hijacked and perverted the Laws of Jesus.
Please tell me what you seek to prove here. Please tell me how the Rabbis' treatment of the Law has anything to do with your obeisance to the Law.
Remember you will be judged according to your words and deeds and not according to the words and deeds of others.

Please Sheshbazaar. No benevolent perfect being would allow his words to be perverted if the life and death of his children hung in the balance.

This is nothing more than preaching. Argumentation logic and coherence move opinion around here Sheshbazaar. Why don't you find an objective way of saying all this.

Again I don't see your point here. Your argument is grade school level "Johnny did it too". You are not answerable to Yahweh/JC for anyone's actions but your own. JC/Yahweh say over and over again that you will be and are judged not by the conduct of others but by your own words and deeds. Period. Do you really think Yahweh/JC are so benighted that they miss your little evasions here? Read their word. It's in the bible. You're so concerned about other peole's action but care not for your own. Yahweh/JC's Laws are there for you. Just go to the bible and read them and then do them.

Sorry Sheshbazaar but it's not me that requires total obeisance to Yahweh/JC's Laws. It's Yahweh/JC. I bear no responsibility whatsoever for the level of obeisance to JC/Yahweh's Laws that they require. That's your problem. Other people not obeying the Laws is not your concern. That's between them and Yahweh/JC. The bible tells us so. Go to Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Yahweh/JC's Laws are all there for you, no evil Rabbis and other non-observant Jews, just Yahweh/JC's Laws in their pristine unadulterated form.
BTW, at least Jews are obeying Yahweh/JC's Laws Sheshbazaar. You're not even trying.
Remember Yahweh/JC would not have issued their Laws if they thought they were impossible to keep. That's your biggest problem here.
The bible gives numerous examples of people that kept JC/Yahweh's Laws. Why could they do it and you can not Sheshbazaar. I mean without casting unproven aspersions on Rabbis can you tell me what the difference is between you and the people who kept Yahweh/JC's eternal and perfect Laws?
Do you believe JC/Yahweh knew their Laws couldn't not be kept?

Excuse me? I'm sorry. I missed that.

Then on whose or what authority are you disobeying Yahweh/JC eternal and perfect Laws?

tdcanam

The law was hinged on two commandments according to Jesus. Love your neighbor and love God. (paraphrasing) Gamera hit the nail on the head with those scripture pastes. If you're going to argue bible, use it. If it says something, try not to say it doesn't.

No, they were not. Abraham's actions were counted to Him as righteousness because he followed God by faith with no written set of guidlines.

After Moses came law. The law was not the end all, it was a physical shadow of what was spiritually coming. People followed Moses, not God. Then the Jews were under the law, not faith. They looked to a theocracy, it was the way of life.

Then while Jesus was on the scene, the law had become God to the people. They (leaders), twisted law for personal gain. They became corrupt, as Jesus pointed out. Had Jesus been compleatly wrong, He would not have lasted as long as He did. (and three years was a long time to get away with the things He did.) After He couldn't be caught in any theological traps, they (leaders) finally twisted another bunch of laws to have Him killed. (Using Rome)

What the Jews were under was TRADITION. 400 "silent years" untill Christ made a very secular "religeous" people.

LOL!

That is the whole point mate! Not really an easier way to salvation, just a way to salvation. The bible says over and over that NO MAN CAN BE SAVED BY THE LAW. The law "is" sin. It point's out what not to do, but never says "do this and you will recieve salvation".

Posted by Gamera (good thing you did it mate, I was just about to start pasting the same thing, lotsa pasting):

Romans 7:4 - Likewise, my
brethren, you have died to the law
through the body of Christ, so that
you may belong to another, to him
who has been raised from the dead
in order that we may bear fruit for
God.

Romans 7:6 - But now we are
discharged from the law, dead to
that which held us captive, so that
we serve not under the old written
code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Galatians 2:19 - For I through the
law died to the law, that I might live
to God.

Galatians 3:10 - For all who rely
on works of the law are under a
curse; for it is written, "Cursed be
every one who does not abide by all
things written in the book of the law,
and do them."

Galatians 3:23 - Now before
faith came, we were confined under
the law, kept under restraint until
faith should be revealed

Galatians 5:4 - You are severed
from Christ, you who would be
justified by the law; you have fallen
away from grace.

Galatians 5:18 - But if you are
led by the Spirit you are not under
the law.

Ephesians 2:15 - by abolishing
in his flesh the law of
commandments and ordinances,
that he might create in himself one
new man in place of the two, so
making peace,

Hebrews 7:12 -
For when there
is a change in the priesthood, there
is necessarily a change in the law
as well.

Hebrews 10:1 - For since the
law has but a shadow of the good
things to come instead of the true
form of these realities, it can never,
by the same sacrifices which are
continually offered year after year,
make perfect those who draw near

James 1:25 - But he who looks
into the perfect law, the law of
liberty, and perseveres, being no
hearer that forgets but a doer that
acts, he shall be blessed in his
doing.

James 2:10 - For whoever keeps
the whole law but fails in one point
has become guilty of all of it.

Sheshbazzar

The Law says; "Your eye SHALL NOT pity..." you have stated here repeatedly noah, that the "Jews" and "Rabbis" DO observe, keep and obey The Law, so the pregnant question here is noah, have not the "Jews", and The "Rabbi's" actually caused this Law to be no longer obeyed, both nullifying and reversing its requirements?
Please provide us with your examples of Judaism actually invoking, applying, carrying out, and DOING this mitzva within the last thousand years.
Either they are obeying and DOING it, or they are not.

Sheshbazzar

This is YOUR answer and false conclusion, and is contradicted by the express statements of belief, and practices of the over 2,000,000 Believers presently living, and by the witness of countless millions more who have died through the ages holding fast this same conviction.
Although there is some controversy among the various sects and denominations on other matters, on this subject they all speak with a virtually unanimous voice, and hold that NO, "xians" or other NT believers ARE NOT "under the Law", nor bound to DO all the things written within The Law. (called by all of these, "The Old Testament", as one being superseded by a "New" and "better" one, based upon better promises.

I hold that it is a commandment and obligation for a believer to uphold the doctrines and teachings of the Elders and Teachers in their congregation, (whatever name or title they may choose to call themselves by) to the greatest extent that maintaining a clear conscience will allow.
Thus it is not right or kosher that any believers should receive their interpretations of, or opinions on The Law, from the reasoning of, or by the authority of men who are outside of the household of faith.
You, noah, a confessed unbeliever say it is your understanding that "xians" ARE under The Law;
But all of the Preachers and Teachers of our New Testament faith, who are confessed believers would say that you are wrong in your understanding and interpretation of our texts.
No believer stands alone, we are all part of a greater organization, there is no reason that any believer should abandon their fellow believers to follow the teachings of anyone who admits to being an unbeliever, as you have.

Gamera

Salvation should be easy, and freely given to all, otherwise those who obtain it can boast.

It sounds like you want to deny salvation to others by making it hard so that when you obtain it, you can boast about it, and say you're better than the others.

That's exactly what Jesus's teaching abhor, as does the OT.

Job 22:29 - For God abases the proud, but he saves the lowly.

Psalms 94:2 - Rise up, O judge of the earth; render to the proud their deserts!

Proverbs 15:25 - The LORD tears down the house of the proud, but maintains the widow's boundaries.

Isaiah 2:12 - For the LORD of hosts has a day against all that is proud and lofty, against all that is lifted up and high;

Ephesians 2:9 - For it is by grace you are saved, and not because of works, lest any man should boast

Why do you want to boast in your salvation when God forbids it!

Gamera

On the authority of Jesus, his unique divine son, who tells us that what counts is not following laws, but loving others. If you follow the law, but don't have love, you are condemned. And if you love others, you will do right by them, and don't need the law to tell you what to do.

Matthew 5:22 21 "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire. 23

Further, Jesus says specifically that the Law was given because of the hardness of our hearts, not because the Law is itself good.

Matthew 19:8 - He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

In short there is a far greater law than the Law, and that's the law of love, which was "from the beginning."