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Old 10-17-2007, 10:39 AM   #1
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Default The Destruction of the Temple

Not one stone....(except I have been to the Wailing Wall...)

What actually was destroyed when, what did Hadrian do, and what does that mean about dating this prophecy?
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:41 AM   #2
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I've always wondered how Christians justify the wailing wall too if Jesus said not one stone would be left standing?
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:45 AM   #3
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Not one stone....(except I have been to the Wailing Wall...)

What actually was destroyed when, what did Hadrian do...?
I believe the Romans reduced the temple complex to rubble in 70, and Hadrian erected a temple to Jupiter on the ruins sometime during the fourth decade of the second century.

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Old 10-17-2007, 10:50 AM   #4
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I've always wondered how Christians justify the wailing wall too if Jesus said not one stone would be left standing?
I am not interested in justifying anything here, but strictly speaking the wailing wall was just a retaining wall around the temple mount; it was not part of the temple itself, nor was it part of any actual building (refer to Mark 13.2 for the buildings).

I hasten to add that the expression not one stone was, in my judgment, just that, an expression, not necessarily intended to be taken woodenly, as if one tottering megalith still barely perched upon another would nullify either the prediction or the ex vaticinium observation.

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Old 10-17-2007, 10:51 AM   #5
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That is what I want to get clear - what was everyone aereated about if there wasn't a JEWISH temple for Hadrian to put Zeus in - or was there? About the Wailing Wall, I think the apologist answer is that it is part of the Temple Mount, not the Temple.

Did enough of the temple survive to continue in use to Hadrian's time?
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:01 AM   #6
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I am not interested in justifying anything here, but strictly speaking the wailing wall was just a retaining wall around the temple mount; it was not part of the temple itself, nor was it part of any actual building (refer to Mark 13.2 for the buildings).
So the wailing wall's most recent two functions are as a retainer for a temple to Jupiter and then for the Al Aqsa mosque? I suppose that merits some wailing.

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Old 10-17-2007, 11:27 AM   #7
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There is a real problem here.

http://www.garstang.us/judaean/barkochba.htm

Everyone assumed everything was raised in 70, but Hadrian's plans for a new city are probably the correct date for when site clearing happened.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:28 AM   #8
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That is what I want to get clear - what was everyone aereated about if there wasn't a JEWISH temple for Hadrian to put Zeus in - or was there?
Well, that one is easy. The temple mount itself was considered holy ground, even without the temple building(s). Indeed, it still is for the Jews. There is even, IIUC, a tunnel that goes under the wailing wall and comes close to where the original holy place would have been; there is no holy place anymore, of course, but does that stop the devout from wanting to get as close as possible to where it once stood? Of course not.

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Did enough of the temple survive to continue in use to Hadrian's time?
No, not of the temple itself. Wars 7.1.1:
Now as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done), Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side [the modern wailing wall]. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind.
And from Wars 7.2.1:
And now Simon, thinking he might be able to astonish and elude the Romans, put on a white frock and buttoned upon him a purple cloak, and appeared out of the ground in the place where the temple had formerly been.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:30 AM   #9
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There is a real problem here.

http://www.garstang.us/judaean/barkochba.htm

Everyone assumed everything was raised in 70, but Hadrian's plans for a new city are probably the correct date for when site clearing happened.
So what exactly is the problem? (Other than the apparent typo, raised for razed.)

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Old 10-17-2007, 12:36 PM   #10
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Sixty-two years after the Temple burned, the Roman Emperor Hadrian proposed to build a new city on the site of Jerusalem, including a temple to Jupiter on the site of the former Jewish temple. This triggered a new Jewish rebellion of surprising intensity under Simon Bar Kochba, and for three years the region was back in Jewish hands. It became Hadrian's one major war, requiring a concerted effort by the Roman military to finally stamp out the rebellion.
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During Hadrian's travels, he determined to build a magnificent new city on the ruins of Jerusalem, with a magnificent new temple dedicated to the Roman god Jupiter on the ruins of the Jewish Temple. He apparently didn't expect much resistance. Well, we all make mistakes.

The Jewish presence was still strong in the region, and the dream of rebuilding the Temple still smouldered. Hadrian's plans fanned this dream back to flame, and rebellion flared up. Simon Bar Kochba, a Jewish leader of massive physical strength (whom many believed to be the Messiah), rallied the Jews. Caught by surprise, the Roman forces in the region were defeated. Jerusalem and its surrounding area were once again under control of Jews.
Bar Kochba Rebellion,
Year 2, 133/134 CE
This large bronze coin was minted by the Jews during the rebellion. The reverse legend says, "For the Freedom of Israel". Later issues changed the legend to "For the Redemption of Israel", making it appear they were aware that they were losing. (H. 708)

A glorious series of coinage was minted by the Jews, containing legends proclaiming the "Freedom of Israel". These coins were usually struck over the top of an existing coin, and you can often make out the remnants of the old design under the new. One of my favorites (not in my collection, alas!) was a silver coin clearly minted over a Vespasian "Judaea Capta" denarius. The shape of Vespasian's portrait and the weeping Jewess are still visible.

But the concentrated might of the Romans was brought to bear on the region, and it became clear that Rome would eventually prevail. In recognition of this, the legends were changed in the final year to "For the Redemption of Israel", looking to spiritual redemption rather than physical freedom.

The rebellion was crushed, and Simon Bar Kochba was captured by the Romans, who put him to death shortly thereafter. Hadrian then went ahead with his plans to level Jerusalem and raise a new city on the site, which he named Aelia Capitolina. Where a Jewish Temple had stood for so long, there was now a temple dedicated to Jupiter. Jews were forbidden to enter the new city, and Jewish power in the region was finally broken. It would not be until modern times that the Jewish dream of rebuilding Jerusalem as the capitol of a Jewish homeland would be realized.
I would rather check Wars against the archaeology and other records to make sure what was done when.


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