Freethought & Rationalism Archive

dongiovanni1976x · 02-12-2007, 09:26 AM

Can anyone find me credible sources for the ossuary boxes found in Bethany in 1973 that is cited in 'The Historical Reliability of John's Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk)', by Craig Blomberg, Apollos 2001, p. 165

I do not have that book, nor do I care to really buy it and I cannot locate anything from a "reputable" source that talks in a scholarly manner about these boxes. Were all three found together? What kind of patina was found on the "crosses" allegedly etched into them? Where are they now? How many Lazarus' were in the "cave"? Every source I run into is apologetic in nature and only touches the surface facts that lend credibility to these being Mary, Martha and Lazarus.

Anyone have any kind of information they might share with me?

Thank you
:wave:

Toto · 02-12-2007, 11:43 AM

You can search the text on Amazon for ossuary; p 165 notes Bruce 1983; 240 - which appear to be a reference to F. F. Bruce The Gospel of John (or via: amazon.co.uk), which says that it is "no more than a coincidence."

The footnote to that is on page 253, and references C.S. Clermont-Ganneau, "Sacophagi", PEQ 6 (1874) and C. H. Kraeling, "Christian Burial Urns", Biblical Archeologist 9 (1946). "The bearing of these inscriptions on the Gospel narrative is that these were very common names at that period."

There are many examples of "crosses" or x's on ossuary boxes, but the cross was not used as a Christian symbol in that period. A fish (pisces) would be recognized as a Christian symbol, or an anchor.

Boro Nut · 02-12-2007, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

A fish (pisces) would be recognized as a Christian symbol, or an anchor.

But if it has both, it's probably just a cool box for omega 3 butter.

Boro Nut

dongiovanni1976x · 02-12-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

You can search the text on Amazon for ossuary; p 165 notes Bruce 1983; 240 - which appear to be a reference to F. F. Bruce The Gospel of John (or via: amazon.co.uk), which says that it is "no more than a coincidence."

The footnote to that is on page 253, and references C.S. Clermont-Ganneau, "Sacophagi", PEQ 6 (1874) and C. H. Kraeling, "Christian Burial Urns", Biblical Archeologist 9 (1946). "The bearing of these inscriptions on the Gospel narrative is that these were very common names at that period."

There are many examples of "crosses" or x's on ossuary boxes, but the cross was not used as a Christian symbol in that period. A fish (pisces) would be recognized as a Christian symbol, or an anchor.

Mille grazie Toto!

Hey when did the Cross become a symbol of Christianity? What sources do you cite as reference to the claim that crosses were not used to refer to Christianity? What of the reference to Pompeii?
:huh:

Toto · 02-12-2007, 12:51 PM

If you need more information, search this forum for Bagatti, in particular Ossuaries of well known early Christians found and Jerusalem Burial Cave Reveals.

Toto · 02-12-2007, 12:57 PM

We cross posted.

Here's a recent thread on Pompeii: Pompeii Graffiti.

There are a lot of prior threads on these questions - you will probably get more out of searching this forum than Google, where you will be overwhelmed with apologetic sites.

dongiovanni1976x · 02-12-2007, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

If you need more information, search this forum for Bagatti, in particular Ossuaries of well known early Christians found and Jerusalem Burial Cave Reveals.

Lol! OMG

I like what MortalWombat

Quote:

I did a little searching around to find related info about this, and found this website. The funny thing about it is that it says

Quote:
Italian scholar P. Bagatti discovered another catacomb holding 100 ossuaries on the western side of the Mount of Olives. Coins that were minted by Governor Varius Gratus (A.D. 16) showed that these tombs were used for burial of Christians before A.D. 70.

But a little farther down, it says this:

Quote:
Another first century Jewish catacomb at the southern end of the Kidron valley was investigated by Dr. Eleazar Sukenik of Hebrew University in 1945. Several ossuaries with the sign of the cross, Greek inscriptions, and a coin minted in A.D. 41 for King Herod Agrippa 1 were found, indicating a sealing date by 42 A.D.

Gee, anyone care to guess why they would claim that a coin found in one tomb which dates to 41 AD should indicate a sealing date of no later than 42 AD, but a coin in another tomb which dates to 16 AD doesn't indicate a sealing date of no later than 17 AD, but only "before A.D. 70"? I think I can think of one reason...

Tigers! · 02-12-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Mille grazie Toto!

Hey when did the Cross become a symbol of Christianity?

When Christ was crucified on one.

Gawen · 02-12-2007, 05:55 PM

I really don't know the timetable of these symbols. But it is believed the "Jesus fish" symbol was used by early Christians. As when they met, one would draw the top 1/2 line and the other would draw the bottom line making the fish symbol. This way one would know if the other was a Christian. I really don't know if this is true or not.

The Chi-Rho symbol is pre-Christian, but Constantine adopted this sign after the dream he had.

Early Christian symbols have also been 'lambs'. But the earliest first usage of a cross, as we know it was not until somewhere in the 7th century, if memory serves. But this symbol also has pre-Christian pagan usage. Earlier usage of a cross looking more like a + sign dates to about the 5th century.

02-12-2007, 09:26 AM	#1
dongiovanni1976x Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: St Louis, MO Posts: 686	Help with Ossuary Boxes Can anyone find me credible sources for the ossuary boxes found in Bethany in 1973 that is cited in 'The Historical Reliability of John's Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk)', by Craig Blomberg, Apollos 2001, p. 165 I do not have that book, nor do I care to really buy it and I cannot locate anything from a "reputable" source that talks in a scholarly manner about these boxes. Were all three found together? What kind of patina was found on the "crosses" allegedly etched into them? Where are they now? How many Lazarus' were in the "cave"? Every source I run into is apologetic in nature and only touches the surface facts that lend credibility to these being Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Anyone have any kind of information they might share with me? Thank you :wave:

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02-12-2007, 11:43 AM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	You can search the text on Amazon for ossuary; p 165 notes Bruce 1983; 240 - which appear to be a reference to F. F. Bruce The Gospel of John (or via: amazon.co.uk), which says that it is "no more than a coincidence." The footnote to that is on page 253, and references C.S. Clermont-Ganneau, "Sacophagi", PEQ 6 (1874) and C. H. Kraeling, "Christian Burial Urns", Biblical Archeologist 9 (1946). "The bearing of these inscriptions on the Gospel narrative is that these were very common names at that period." There are many examples of "crosses" or x's on ossuary boxes, but the cross was not used as a Christian symbol in that period. A fish (pisces) would be recognized as a Christian symbol, or an anchor.

02-12-2007, 12:51 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	If you need more information, search this forum for Bagatti, in particular Ossuaries of well known early Christians found and Jerusalem Burial Cave Reveals.

02-12-2007, 12:57 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	We cross posted. Here's a recent thread on Pompeii: Pompeii Graffiti. There are a lot of prior threads on these questions - you will probably get more out of searching this forum than Google, where you will be overwhelmed with apologetic sites.

02-12-2007, 05:55 PM	#9
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	I really don't know the timetable of these symbols. But it is believed the "Jesus fish" symbol was used by early Christians. As when they met, one would draw the top 1/2 line and the other would draw the bottom line making the fish symbol. This way one would know if the other was a Christian. I really don't know if this is true or not. The Chi-Rho symbol is pre-Christian, but Constantine adopted this sign after the dream he had. Early Christian symbols have also been 'lambs'. But the earliest first usage of a cross, as we know it was not until somewhere in the 7th century, if memory serves. But this symbol also has pre-Christian pagan usage. Earlier usage of a cross looking more like a + sign dates to about the 5th century.

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