Johnny Skeptic

I am making posts to show readers that you have continued to refuse to back up your completley uncorroborated primary assertion that skeptics and Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babylon, and/or by having Arabs pitch their tents there.

May I ask who else in the world besides you believes that the Bible would be discredited if Babylon were to be rebuilt, and/or if Arabs were to pitch their tents there? You once basically said that people who have not yet been convinced that the Bible makes false claims would be convinced if Babylon were to be rebuilt, but you never stated that that number of people is a significant number of people. If that number is small, then that most assuredly is not sufficient reason for skeptics and Muslims to attempt to rebuild Babylon, is that right? If that number is large, then you need to provide evidence that such is the case, is that right?

My motives have nothing whatsoever to do with your primary argument, which is in fact the main issue here. You always attempt to divert attention away from your primary argument so then you won't have to defend it. Do you believe that this is honest? I am well aware that whenever you get into trouble you always answer questions with questions so that you will not have to answer them and embarrass yourself. Did you think that no one has noticed this?

You love to discuss my motives in your attempts to avoid defending your primary assertion, but as usual, you have conveniently refused to address the issue of the opinions of the undecided crowd. They ARE NOT trying to discredit the Bible. They want to know why you continue to refuse to tell them what benefits skeptics and Muslims would enjoy if Babyon were to be rebuilt, and/or if Arabs were to pitch their tents in Babylon. Would you care to address your arguments towards that crowd for a change? Surely you dont' expect ANY skeptic or Muslim to agree with your absurd arguments. The undecided crowd are the only crowd that you have any chance whatsoever to influence, and you have made them feel completely left out, and you have convinced them that you are not really serious about defending the Babylon prophecy.

Is it your position that you are not being evasive and that you have good arguments? If so, then I will send some of your posts to some professors at Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Semimary, two schools that you have said that you like, and ask the professors if in their opinions your arguments are credible. Of course, I will provide them with your name and where to find you at this forum. Fundamentalist Christian scholars are the key to your defeat. I should have brought fundamentalist Christian scholars into these debates long ago. I will soon remedy that. You cannot possibly hope to get away with contesting fundamentalist Christian scholars.

I answered your question, but it is a given that you will not answer any of my questions. It that right, Lee?

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, I was not asked what other people would think of as rebuilding Babylon! So I presented what I would consider this to be. I agree that you would not convince any flat-earthers! But you would, I expect, convince those who sincerely want to know the truth.

Well, I meant all your posts, though! Not just your posts in this thread, on this question. Why are you trying to convince people that Scripture is not inspired? And what better way to do this would there be, than to take a prophecy that says X will never be done, and then do X?

Regards,
Lee

Johnny Skeptic

And what better way would there be for you to get someone to accept your challenge than for you to provide evidence of substantial benefits to skeptics and Muslims if their attempts are successful? Is this not required when challenges are made? I have told you on a number of occasions that I am willing to do X, in this case, to disprove the Babylon prophecy. You once said in this thread that disproving other prophecies does not disprove the Babylon prophecy, so I am ready to disprove the Babylon prophecy if you will provide me with evidence that if my attempt is successful that skeptics AND Muslims will enjoy substantial benefits. This will always be the primary issue no matter how many posts you make or over how many years that you make them. If I claimed that no one would ever be able to pick up one billion grains of sand on a beach one at a time within one year, would you accept my challenge without any evidence that you would enjoy substantial benefits if your attempt was successful? Of course you wouldn't.

You need to address your arguments to ALL audiences, most especially to the undecided crowd. They are essentially the only crowd that you have any chance at all to influence. You always conveniently and evasively try to divert attention away from your primary assertion back to me, but you continue to refuse to address the undecided crowd, who by the way ARE NOT trying to discredit the Bible. Diverting attention to me does not help your arguments at all.

You haven't provided any evidence at all that even a handful of FUNDAMENTALIST Christians agree with your position, let alone anyone else. I would think that that would embarrass you, but for some reason it doesn't. Have you ever heard of a bibliography? Can you produce even several laymen who would give up Christianity if Babylon were to be rebuilt? Well of course you can't.

I will contact Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary next week. You said that you like both of those schools. I am quite certain that you know that the professors at those schools will ALL disagree with your position and further add to your embarrassment. They will concur with me that you are evasive and that you have never defended your primary argument that skeptics and Muslims are missing a golden opportunity to discredit the Bible by not trying to discredit the Bible by rebuilding Babylon.
I will also contact professors at a few other fundamentalist Christian schools of your choosing if you wish. How much more fair can I be than to exclusively consult fundamentalist Christian sources? You would NEVER be willing to exclusively consult skeptic sources. Will the opinions of fundamentalist Christian scholars make any difference to you, or do you value your own education, knowledge, and experience greater than you do the qualifications of fundamentalist Christians scholars from schools OF YOUR OWN CHOOSING? Fundamentalist Christian scholars are the key to your defeat, and I will make good use of them. I should have consulted some fundamentalist Christians scholars at the beginning of these debates. If I had, these debates would have concluded months ago. It would be quite amusing to see you contest fundamentalist Christian scholars from schools of your choosing. Knowing you, you will do just that.

Have you ever heard of a bibliography? Do you have ANY scholarly sources that agree with your arguments?

You are quite unique. I have never seen any other fundamentalist Christian do such a thing. I have no idea whatsoever who your intended audience is. Who is it? Is it atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Deists, or the undecided crowd? Are you aware of any debates like these debates about the Babylon prophecy anywhere on the Internet, or anywhere else?

Your primary mistake was listening to anything that Josh McDowell has to say about anything. He has even been attacked by some Christians, including on occasion by James Holding.

This is the bottom line: Do you really believe that skeptics and Muslims would enjoy substantial benefits if Babyon were to be rebuilt, and/or if Arabs were to pitch their tents there? If you refuse to answer this question, then readers will assume the you are admitting defeat.

This is great fun. As always, thanks for the entertainment. It is quite amusing to see a fundamentalist Christian state arguments that the vast majority of fundamentalist Christians disagree with, surely 99.9999999% of them.

Johnny Skeptic

How utterly absurd. Why must you always evasively attempt to divert attention back to me? My arguments are not the only issue here. A much more important issue is that there are over 6 billion OTHER people in the world, Lee, and many of them are undecided. The undecided crowd are essentially the ONLY group of people who you have any chance whatsoever to influence. They ARE NOT trying to discredit the Bible. They want to know why you continue to refuse to provide evidence that if Babylon were to be rebuilt, skeptics and Muslims will enjoy substantial benefits. They want to know why you are leaving them out of these debates. They have learned that you are not really serious about providing any corroboration at all from experts, or even from laymen. You have neglected your chief audience. Shame on you.

If I can get an undecided person to come to this forum, will you answer his questions? If some scholars from Wheaton College and Dallas Theological Seminary disagree with you, will you concede defeat? I will contact them and post my findings whether you concede defeat or not.

John A. Broussard

If the intent is to convince people that some brand of scripture such as the Rig Veda, bible, quran, etc., are not inspired, playing around with prophecies where the believers will never, never, never admit that the prophecy has not been fulfilled will always be fruitles.

You are a specific example of the ludicrousness of even dealing with prophecies. No answer will ever satisfy you, since you are already convinced that the prophecy can't be invalidated.

Why can't it be? Because the bible is inerrant.

Anyone who believes that someone, by holding up their hand can make the sun stop moving (when it isn't moving in the first place) is never, ever, ever going to be convinced that any fairy tale in the big book isn't literally and totally true.

Johnny Skeptic

Where is Lee Merrill? This thread has gotten to be very entertaining. I miss the fun whenever Lee stays away for more than a day or so. I notice that he has conveniently vacated a number of threads on prophecy. Perhaps he should try a new topic of interest?

lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well no, it's not, you are challenging me to make a survey, now first please do a survey yourself of skeptics to show me that this survey I'm supposed to take will be beneficial, before I do it! This is just kind of silly, no, make up your own mind whether it is beneficial to do something! And then either do it, or don't do it...

Sure...

Well, they'll have to do more than just disagree, they'll have to convince me! I reserve the right to make up me own mind...

I gave you all very specific conditions, though, fulfill the conditions, and I will acknowledge defeat...

Regards,
Lee

John A. Broussard

This may be an answer to some question, but it certainly isn't the answer to the question I asked.

Want to try again?

Jack the Bodiless

Lee, we've all seen the photographs, yes?

And the article YOU linked to, which described a thousand inhabitants being moved?

And what do you mean by "I really need to hear your response"? Here is what I posted earlier:
Given the ease with which you deny CLEAR evidence that the prophecy has ALREADY failed: why should we believe you when you now claim that you'd accept the failure of the prophecy if Babylon was rebuilt, or some Arabs pitched tents there, or whatever?

You would merely ignore this, or pretend it was faked, or move the goalposts in some fashion.

Johnny Skeptic

The Iraqis are the chief players here. Only with their permission could attempts be made to rebuild Babylon, or attempts to have Arabs pitch their tents there. They would only be interested in either attempt if you would provide them with evidence that if their attempts are successful that they would enjoy substantial benefits. The main benefit for them would be that the U.S. would adopt a more favorable foreign policy towards Muslims. Do you believe that that would happen if the attempts were successful?

Ok, how about a comment from my fundamentalist Christian housekeeper? Her name is Martha. I can put you in touch with her if you wish. She says, “I am a fundamentalist Christian, so obviously I am not trying to discredit the Bible. I am curious as to why you have challenged skeptics and Muslims to rebuild Babylon without providing them with any evidence at all that they would enjoy substantial benefits if Babylon were to be rebuilt. Please explain yourself.� Lee, you are well aware that those comments surely apply to lots of people around the world who are shopping for world views but have not yet decided which world views to choose.

[quote=LeeMerrill] Well, they'll have to do more than just disagree, they'll have to convince me! I reserve the right to make up my own mind.[quote]

Well of course you have the right to make up your own mind, but so does everyone else. The point is, as far as virtually all readers at this forum or elsewhere are concerned, who has more credibility, you or fundamentalist Christians scholars from schools of YOUR OWN CHOOSING? Surely, the latter is the case. Have you ever heard of a bibliography? Have you ever heard of corroborative sources? You place much too much importance on your own opinions. That is prideful, and the Bible says that pride is a sin. As far as the general public is concerned, no debate is ever won based solely upon one person’s opinion, even if that person has Ph.D. in ancient history.

As I have told you before, Deuteronomy 13 says that bad people can predict the future too, so by the Bible’s own admission, God’s ability to predict the future is nothing special. I have also told you that even if God could predict the future, I would not follow him because of his questionable nature. There is no logical correlation that can be made between the ability to predict the future and goodness. You once said in another thread that personal experience is a necessary and important part of your belief system. Such being the case, I request that you start a new thread at this forum or at the GRD forum and defend your personal experiences.

After you reply to my preceding arguments, I suggest that we simplify these debates and start all over again with your initial, primary arguments. You said:

Those were your beginning and admittedly primary arguments in this thread, so it is up to you to explain them in detail. May I ask what this prize for Muslims would consist of? We cannot proceed any further until you do this. Do you agree that the prizes that Muslims would be most interested in would be that the U.S. would adopt a friendly foreign policy towards Muslims, and that the Christian Church would become substantially smaller?

This is great fun. As always, thanks very much for the entertainment.