Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Rifleman · 11-08-2004, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

New Advent
And the older commentators generally consider that this interpretation is confirmed by the words of Our Lord to his disciples: "I saw Satan like lightning falling from heaven" (Luke 10:18). For these words were regarded as a rebuke to the disciples, who were thus warned of the danger of pride by being reminded of the fall of Lucifer. But modern commentators take this text in a different sense, and refer it not to the original fall of Satan, but his overthrow by the faith of the disciples, who cast out devils in the name of their Master. And this new interpretation, as Schanz observes, is more in keeping with the context.

An interesting interpretation.

Quote:

But then there is Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one.

Toto · 11-08-2004, 11:55 AM

Previous discussion of falling from Heaven and the Christian interpretation of the serpent in the garden of Eden as Satan:

Q: Cast out of heaven? has a lot of good discussion and references.

Magus55 · 11-08-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

I've got it, although it probably has been mentioned before. Well, here goes my argument.

Q1. If evil exists, how can that come from an omnibenevolent God?

Typical Apology - God allows freedom of choice, therefore people can choose evil over God.

Well, as you put it, its good for humans to have the ability to make decisions, therefore even though evil is bad, allowing the possibility of evil is good.

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Q2. Why would God want to give people this freedom?

TA - Because God loves everyone.

It is said that the greatest gifts bestowed upon mankind by God is Free will and reason.

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Q3. Well, that makes no sense, but OK, let's work with it. Next question: Is there a Heaven?

TA - Yes, Heaven is where you go to if you accept Jesus when you die.

It does make sense. Love can't exist without choice. And yes there is a Heaven.

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Q4. Is there any evil in Heaven?

TA - No, there is no evil in Heaven.

Presumeably no, but that doesn't mean the possibility for it to exist isn't there.

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Q5. So how come God doesn't care that Christians lose their freedom in Heaven, but doesn't mind that they suffer while on Earth?

TA - Well, they don't lose their freedom in Heaven, they just wouldn't want to sin because it's paradise.

Here is where your argument starts to break down. Heaven and Earth are connected as part of creation. On Earth, both good and evil exist. We make choices on Earth and choose our fate based on those choices. Do we stand for good, and God, or do we stand for evil and oppose Him. After the Earth passes a way, we transition to our final destinations, based on what we chose on Earth. Its not that Earth and Heaven/Hell are completely distinct. Its not a question of if there is evil on Earth, isn't there in Heaven? Its that, since there is evil and good on Earth, our transition is to either God and goodness, or Hell and evil.

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Q6. But didn't Adam sin in paradise?

TA - Yes, but that was because the Serpent tempted him.

Garden of Eden is not that same as Heaven. Adam also had never experienced sin or temptation.

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Q7. Why was the Serpent tempting him, if it is paradise and all?

TA - The Serpent was Satan, who was cast out of Heaven because of his sin.

See above, paradise in the Garden of Eden is different than Heaven.

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Q8. But I thought those in Heaven couldn't sin? How did Satan sin if he was in Heaven?

TA - ?

Anyone wanna try and finish the apology?

No one said those in Heaven can't sin. The distinction is, during the fall of the angels, the angels hadn't experienced sin and rebellion yet, like Adam. Angels are not the same as humans. They aren't given the chance to repent and be saved. Satan went against God, much like Adam and Eve, and was cast out of Heaven. One possibility is the Heaven of the fall isn't the same as the one to come. In other words, Satan and the angels were allowed to sin in Heaven, afterwhich they were cast out and no sin was again allowed in Heaven. Fast forward to the future, humans know the consequence of sin, there is no reason to rebell again. The only reason we end up in the new Heaven is because we actively chose to be in a place without sin. Also keep in mind, the future Heaven of Christians isn't the Heaven you generally think of.

Toto · 11-08-2004, 01:26 PM

Interesting, Magus55. Is that your own interpretation, or is there some Biblical or other support for it?

Aaron Thrash · 11-08-2004, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

Garden of Eden is not that same as Heaven. Adam also had never experienced sin or temptation.

I have a real problem with statements like these. If Adam had never experienced sin or temptation before, as you say, then why would a benevolent god punish them both eternally? Would not you assume that as a loving god he would have explained to the first people about the dangers of his very creation? What a stupid and selfish god you worship.

-A

Godfather · 11-08-2004, 02:57 PM

Lucifer is a descriptive term meaning morning or day star. The passage in Isaiah describes a powerful king losing all that he has because he said "I will be like the most high!" The kjv only crowd is pretty much the only christian group who believes wholeheartedly that the passage refers to satan.

show_no_mercy · 11-08-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rifleman

Also, there is a section in Isaiah (14:12-15) about the fall of Lucifer:

This misquoting of the Bible was discussed earlier

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=96950

Gullwind · 11-08-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magus55

It is said that the greatest gifts bestowed upon mankind by God is Free will and reason.

What a great gift. The automatic banishment to hell unless you reason the right way.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Magus55 · 11-08-2004, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Thrash

I have a real problem with statements like these. If Adam had never experienced sin or temptation before, as you say, then why would a benevolent god punish them both eternally? Would not you assume that as a loving god he would have explained to the first people about the dangers of his very creation? What a stupid and selfish god you worship.

-A

Who said Adam and Eve are punished eternally?

WILLOWTREE · 11-08-2004, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Q1. If evil exists, how can that come from an omnibenevolent God?

Typical Apology - God allows freedom of choice, therefore people can choose evil over God.

It doesn't come from God. It comes from whoever does it.

Quote:

Q2. Why would God want to give people this freedom?

TA - Because God loves everyone.

God does not love everyone = common erroneous belief about God. The capacity to love everyone is there but He does not love everyone. The Bible reveals a God who has enemies and these enemies are the object of His wrath.

God turned freedom/free will loose because love cannot be established if a person does not have the freedom to do otherwise.

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Q3. Well, that makes no sense, but OK, let's work with it. Next question: Is there a Heaven?

TA - Yes, Heaven is where you go to if you accept Jesus when you die.

Acceptance of Jesus is not the criteria for entrance to heaven. Faithfulness to Jesus is, and there are exceptions - but not many.

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Q6. But didn't Adam sin in paradise?

TA - Yes, but that was because the Serpent tempted him.

Adam/Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. The Garden was not heaven - obviously.

They like us are on trial until the day we die.

Rejecting th existence of the trial is the chief indication that you are failing.

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Q7. Why was the Serpent tempting him, if it is paradise and all?

Because God allowed the serpent/Satan to do so.

Because we are on trial in a war between God and Satan.

Satan only wants to make us fail and not replace the void left in heaven by him and his fallen angels.

When he succeeds he also gets revenge on God for not forgiving him, unlike the forgiveness available to us.

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Q8. How did Satan sin if he was in Heaven?

Satan has access to heaven to accuse mankind before God but he is not a resident any longer.

All your questions reflect ignorance about basic Bible claims.

Please don't get offended for I am ignorant about many things.

WT

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11-08-2004, 11:55 AM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Previous discussion of falling from Heaven and the Christian interpretation of the serpent in the garden of Eden as Satan: Q: Cast out of heaven? has a lot of good discussion and references.

11-08-2004, 01:26 PM	#14
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Interesting, Magus55. Is that your own interpretation, or is there some Biblical or other support for it?

11-08-2004, 02:57 PM	#16
Godfather Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hurricane Central. Posts: 158	Lucifer is a descriptive term meaning morning or day star. The passage in Isaiah describes a powerful king losing all that he has because he said "I will be like the most high!" The kjv only crowd is pretty much the only christian group who believes wholeheartedly that the passage refers to satan.

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