Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-08-2004, 05:41 PM

In Hollywood at CFI West Sun Jan 18 at 11 am and in Costa Mesa at 4:30 pm.

David Karpeles is a scientist and a philanthopist who made his money in real estate:

Quote:

He began his real estate investment business, and worked toward a Ph.D. at the University of California at Santa Barbara while working at General Electric Tempo. Competed all Ph.D. course-work in 1971 at the University of California at Santa Barbara, but he did not attempt to complete the program by writing a thesis until 2003 when he wrote his dissertation, "Biblical Historicity" and received a PhD in History from Atlantic International University.

. . .

David begin collecting historical documents in 1978 after visiting the Huntington Museum. He is the founder and C.E.O. of the Karpeles Manuscript Library Museums located in Santa Barbara, California; Buffalo, New York; Charleston, South Carolina; Jacksonville, Florida; Tacoma, Washington; Duluth, Minnesota; and Newburgh, New York. The museums are open to both scholars and the general public; all with no charge. Most are open daily, year around. The Karpeles Manuscript Library is the world's largest private holding of important original documents and manuscripts.

The story of his Manuscript Library

Celsus · 01-08-2004, 07:10 PM

Hi Toto,

Do you know what his general stance on such matters is? Are you attending (and will we get a review)?

Joel

Toto · 01-08-2004, 08:59 PM

I know nothing more than I posted. But since CFI is an organization of professional skeptics and secular humanists, I doubt that he will tell us that the Bible is true history and the word of God.

I expect to attend, and will report back.

Toto · 01-18-2004, 01:36 AM

*bump*

Toto · 01-20-2004, 12:34 AM

I went to the lecture, and, while I wasn't sure what to expect, it was definitely unexpected.

Dr. Karpeles started off by saying that the Bible was 100% true. We all had a good laugh. This set the tone of the lecture, which was rather light hearted, so while I am sure that a lot of what he said was whimsical or sly humor, I think that some of it was serious, but I'm not sure where the line is.

He then talked a little bit about his manuscript collection. He said that before 1981, universities used to raise money by selling off some of their valuable manuscripts to raise money for building programs, and then buy the manuscripts back once they had raised other money. He started buying up manuscripts and not selling them back; in 1981, the universities realized what he was doing, and the prices of original manuscripts went up significantly.

He owns the original copy of the Bill of Rights, and a number of other original documents, from clay tablets to modern manuscripts. Everything is in his libraries, which are all free and open to the public.

He then said that if the Bible is true and God exists, that we should be able to figure something out about God by reading the Bible. We know, for instance, that God has fingers, because he wrote the 10 Commandments with his fingers, and he walked in the garden of Eden, so he must have legs. The Bible actually says that there are many gods - Psalm 82:1. Furthermore, Gen 6:2-4 says that the sons of God married the daughers of men, so we must all have some godly DNA in us.

What does God do? Nothing. Free will is his gift to us. If you pray to God, God answers telepathically - but how do you know if God is speaking, or if the answer came from your own conscience or experience? This is the problem with Divine Inspiration.

He then said that the authors of the Bible were often wrong, that the flood is dated to 2518 BCE in the Hebrew Bible, but to 3200 BCE in the Greek Bible.

He handed out a Bible Chronology. The key to dating events in the Bible is the Egyptian attack on the city of Rehov in 925 BC mentioned in 2 Chronicles. He then worked out various dates for Solomon, the Exodus, etc. dating Abraham at 2166 and Adam at 4174.

This opened the issue of how to reconcile the Bible and evolution, since evolution says that man evolved long before Adam lived. He suggested that God went to an evolved human and called him "man", the meaning of "Adam". What event about this time would this commemorate? He said that 4174 was the date that women's eyeliner was invented, but he didn't that that was the event. He suggested that the event that Adam represents is the invention of agriculture. Cain was the first farmer, and Abel the first rancher. This solves the problem of where Cain's wife came from - she was a human from a neighboring hunter-gatherer society.

He then explained why Eve was formed from Adam's rib. Hebrews were originally Sumerians. In the Sumerian legend, humans were created by the goddess Nin Ti, which translates Goddess of the Living - and Eve is known as the mother of the living. But an alternate meaning for Ti is "rib".

He then discussed Methuseleh, who was Noah's grandfather. He asked, did Methuselah survive the flood? In the book of Jasher, which was rejected from the Bible (although it is mentioned in the Bible), God talks to Methuselah, and Methulselah gets Noah to build the Ark; it was only after Methuselah died that God told Noah to load the Ark.

Karpeles owns an "original translation" for Jasher. He also owns some clay tablets, including one that dates to 2500 years before the Bible, which states that God created the birds in the sky, etc.

He discussed some ancient algebra. Land had originally been identified by its area and perimeter, until someone got the bright idea of identifying it by its length and width. There was the problem of converting records with area / perimeter to length and width, which was done by solving a quadratic equation, and he had a clay tablet which gave directions for doing this.

He then said that there was a tablet with the names of Biblical cities, making it likely that these cities really existed and were not imaginary.

Moses, he said, was Egyptian. The Book of the Dead contains some predecessors of the 10C. So when God dictated to Moses, Moses might just have been remembering stuff from Egypt.

At the end, he said that there was no record of the Exodus. But there had been excavations at Pithom (mentioned in Exodus 1:11), which match the description of its construction in Exodus 5, with three layers - the first layer bricks made of straw, the next, when they ran out of straw, with stubble, and the last layer with just mud.

All in all, it was an interesting lecture. Karpeles is obviously enjoying life and having fun with Biblical history. But I am not really convinced that the Bible is much of a guide to history.

Capt_Drakes · 01-20-2004, 08:59 AM

I attended the lecture as well. It wasn't what I expected but it was still enjoyable.

He said that carbon dating had determined that the attack at Rehov happened in 925 BCE. I didn't know it could be that accurate. Anyone know about this?

You must have taken some excellent notes, Toto.

MortalWombat · 01-20-2004, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Competed all Ph.D. course-work in 1971 at the University of California at Santa Barbara, but he did not attempt to complete the program by writing a thesis until 2003 when he wrote his dissertation, "Biblical Historicity" and received a PhD in History from Atlantic International University.

Wow. And I thought I was a procrastinator for waiting 9 months to finish writing my dissertation.

Toto · 01-20-2004, 10:40 AM

I relied on his handout and took notes.

I think he also said that the attack at Rehov was mentioned in Egyptian documents, but my notes weren't that good.

The carbon dating may just have confirmed the Egyptian records.

The lecture was amazingly low tech. He passed around copies of some documents, rather than having a .jpg on his laptop and projecting it onto the screen that was behind him. Someone did video the presentation in LA, so it might be available for sale.

My thought was that this lecture would have been appropriate for most audiences of all ages, including the religious, as long as they weren't die hard fundamentalists. It almost seemed to be trying to give liberals a reason to hold on to the Bible, even though it contains so many errors, so much mythology.

Peter Kirby · 01-20-2004, 11:23 AM

Does he really think that we possess the ancient "Book of Jasher"?

There is some info here:
http://answers.org/Bible/jasher-book-of.html

best,
Peter Kirby

Toto · 01-20-2004, 12:05 PM

Hm. As I said, he had the general approach that this was all a lot of fun. It was hard to tell if he was serious about this - he obviously was not always serious, and seemed to enjoy a good story.

His email address is on this page as kmuseumsb@aol.com .

You could email him about this. Or drive up to Santa Barbara and look at it yourself, possibly.

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01-08-2004, 07:10 PM	#2
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Hi Toto, Do you know what his general stance on such matters is? Are you attending (and will we get a review)? Joel

01-08-2004, 08:59 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I know nothing more than I posted. But since CFI is an organization of professional skeptics and secular humanists, I doubt that he will tell us that the Bible is true history and the word of God. I expect to attend, and will report back.

01-18-2004, 01:36 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	bump

01-20-2004, 12:34 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I went to the lecture, and, while I wasn't sure what to expect, it was definitely unexpected. Dr. Karpeles started off by saying that the Bible was 100% true. We all had a good laugh. This set the tone of the lecture, which was rather light hearted, so while I am sure that a lot of what he said was whimsical or sly humor, I think that some of it was serious, but I'm not sure where the line is. He then talked a little bit about his manuscript collection. He said that before 1981, universities used to raise money by selling off some of their valuable manuscripts to raise money for building programs, and then buy the manuscripts back once they had raised other money. He started buying up manuscripts and not selling them back; in 1981, the universities realized what he was doing, and the prices of original manuscripts went up significantly. He owns the original copy of the Bill of Rights, and a number of other original documents, from clay tablets to modern manuscripts. Everything is in his libraries, which are all free and open to the public. He then said that if the Bible is true and God exists, that we should be able to figure something out about God by reading the Bible. We know, for instance, that God has fingers, because he wrote the 10 Commandments with his fingers, and he walked in the garden of Eden, so he must have legs. The Bible actually says that there are many gods - Psalm 82:1. Furthermore, Gen 6:2-4 says that the sons of God married the daughers of men, so we must all have some godly DNA in us. What does God do? Nothing. Free will is his gift to us. If you pray to God, God answers telepathically - but how do you know if God is speaking, or if the answer came from your own conscience or experience? This is the problem with Divine Inspiration. He then said that the authors of the Bible were often wrong, that the flood is dated to 2518 BCE in the Hebrew Bible, but to 3200 BCE in the Greek Bible. He handed out a Bible Chronology. The key to dating events in the Bible is the Egyptian attack on the city of Rehov in 925 BC mentioned in 2 Chronicles. He then worked out various dates for Solomon, the Exodus, etc. dating Abraham at 2166 and Adam at 4174. This opened the issue of how to reconcile the Bible and evolution, since evolution says that man evolved long before Adam lived. He suggested that God went to an evolved human and called him "man", the meaning of "Adam". What event about this time would this commemorate? He said that 4174 was the date that women's eyeliner was invented, but he didn't that that was the event. He suggested that the event that Adam represents is the invention of agriculture. Cain was the first farmer, and Abel the first rancher. This solves the problem of where Cain's wife came from - she was a human from a neighboring hunter-gatherer society. He then explained why Eve was formed from Adam's rib. Hebrews were originally Sumerians. In the Sumerian legend, humans were created by the goddess Nin Ti, which translates Goddess of the Living - and Eve is known as the mother of the living. But an alternate meaning for Ti is "rib". He then discussed Methuseleh, who was Noah's grandfather. He asked, did Methuselah survive the flood? In the book of Jasher, which was rejected from the Bible (although it is mentioned in the Bible), God talks to Methuselah, and Methulselah gets Noah to build the Ark; it was only after Methuselah died that God told Noah to load the Ark. Karpeles owns an "original translation" for Jasher. He also owns some clay tablets, including one that dates to 2500 years before the Bible, which states that God created the birds in the sky, etc. He discussed some ancient algebra. Land had originally been identified by its area and perimeter, until someone got the bright idea of identifying it by its length and width. There was the problem of converting records with area / perimeter to length and width, which was done by solving a quadratic equation, and he had a clay tablet which gave directions for doing this. He then said that there was a tablet with the names of Biblical cities, making it likely that these cities really existed and were not imaginary. Moses, he said, was Egyptian. The Book of the Dead contains some predecessors of the 10C. So when God dictated to Moses, Moses might just have been remembering stuff from Egypt. At the end, he said that there was no record of the Exodus. But there had been excavations at Pithom (mentioned in Exodus 1:11), which match the description of its construction in Exodus 5, with three layers - the first layer bricks made of straw, the next, when they ran out of straw, with stubble, and the last layer with just mud. All in all, it was an interesting lecture. Karpeles is obviously enjoying life and having fun with Biblical history. But I am not really convinced that the Bible is much of a guide to history.

01-20-2004, 08:59 AM	#6
Capt_Drakes Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ventura, CA Posts: 1,870	I attended the lecture as well. It wasn't what I expected but it was still enjoyable. He said that carbon dating had determined that the attack at Rehov happened in 925 BCE. I didn't know it could be that accurate. Anyone know about this? You must have taken some excellent notes, Toto.

01-20-2004, 10:40 AM	#8
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I relied on his handout and took notes. I think he also said that the attack at Rehov was mentioned in Egyptian documents, but my notes weren't that good. The carbon dating may just have confirmed the Egyptian records. The lecture was amazingly low tech. He passed around copies of some documents, rather than having a .jpg on his laptop and projecting it onto the screen that was behind him. Someone did video the presentation in LA, so it might be available for sale. My thought was that this lecture would have been appropriate for most audiences of all ages, including the religious, as long as they weren't die hard fundamentalists. It almost seemed to be trying to give liberals a reason to hold on to the Bible, even though it contains so many errors, so much mythology.

01-20-2004, 11:23 AM	#9
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Does he really think that we possess the ancient "Book of Jasher"? There is some info here: http://answers.org/Bible/jasher-book-of.html best, Peter Kirby

01-20-2004, 12:05 PM	#10
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Hm. As I said, he had the general approach that this was all a lot of fun. It was hard to tell if he was serious about this - he obviously was not always serious, and seemed to enjoy a good story. His email address is on this page as kmuseumsb@aol.com . You could email him about this. Or drive up to Santa Barbara and look at it yourself, possibly.

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