Sheshbazzar

As indicated above, that is a view similar to what has in the past been expressed by others in this Forum.
Of course such a question cannot be answered without going into the subject of the Israelite Theology/belief system in contrast to the Canaanite Theology/belief system, of how the 'worlds' were formed, and the problems with religious syncretisim that exist(ed).
Suffice it to say that neither group could claim to the exclusive use of, nor understanding of the terms El and Elohim, and their innate theological differences would cause them to understand and apply the terms differently.
Not much cause for confusion when the Israelites specifically identified their deity as YHWH, when they failed in this, syncretisim overwhelmed them.
I hope that apart from the ensuing debate, the answer to your initial query has been amply addressed, the name YHWH is integral to the ancient text from Genesis 2 forward, it is the translations that men, both the alleged "believers" and unbelievers alike, manipulate to serve their own agendas.

Much has already been written on Exodus 6:2, and I won't take it up again here. Again, now you know somewhat of how early, prominently, and frequently the name YHWH actually occurs in the HB text, yet is obscured in "Versions", we that keep that body of knowledge in the forefront, interpret Ex. 6:2 in a manner that is consistent with the witness of the entire text.


Added answer, Abram knew YHWH and called upon the Name YHWH. Gen. 12:8, 13:4, 14:22, 15:2, 15:7 and many more, check 'em out.

Naphtali Jones

Thanks for all the feedback, it is an interesting subject to explore and I already feel like I have learned a lot. I can see how El and YWHW could have been naturally conflated without the Hebrews directly borrowing their god from the Caananites (although I am not totally convinced of this matter). However, the part I still don't understand is why the Hebrews kept using the plural form "Elohim" to refer to their monotheistic version of god. Surely that is needlessly confusing in a polytheistic world whose frames of reference including thinking of the Elohim as the Children of El.

I am also still unclear about how Exodus 6:2 cannot be a contradiction in relation to the above references you have just supplied.

Loomis

The word “Elohim” is broken. Afaik, there is no single definition that satisfies every use. But that doesn’t mean it’s a big divine mystery – or that it has two or more meanings: it only means that the authors who used it probably didn’t know what it meant any more than you do.

Check out Psalm 82:1

It’s horrible. But it’s fun. It’s packed with brain teasers. It looks to me like it’s a polemic against El and his 70 sons.

It looks to me like the red elohim is plural. They are El’s 70 sons.

It looks to me like the blue Elohim is singular. It is a proper title.

It looks to me like the blue Elohim is the supernatural super hero who is coming to the rescue and dissing the old belief system. He is “firing” El’s pantheon.

The fact that the word elohim is used both as a proper title, and as a name for El’s kids, deserves an explanation. I’d bet that the blue Elohim is late addition. I bet it’s covering up the name of an earlier god: Maybe Baal, Melchizedek, or Yahweh.

It would be funny if it were Yahweh, but Melchizedek gets the support from the DSS. Baal, on the other hand, is the only candidate who would demand to be replaced.

Loomis

Consider this model for the evolution of the word ‘elohim.’ It’s an oversimplification because it doesn’t account for Baal.

1) In the earliest stories god was named El.

2) Then El got set aside, and stories were rewritten with the name Yahweh.

3) Then someone invented the name Eloha to represent the two earlier names combined. (El-Yah)

4) Then someone invented the word ‘elohim’ (plural) to represent a family (or a breed) of gods like Eloha. (Eloha is to elohim, as Baal is to baalim.) This definition also allows for Elyon – the most high god above them.

5) Then someone began using the word ‘elohim’ as the proper title Elohim, where one big god gets the title previously held by a group of gods.

Am I making any sense?

It’s like calling your senator “Senate” because you don’t understand - or don’t care - or perhaps want to deny, that there are other senators.

If so, then the chronology would be:

God called “El” - earliest.

God called “Yahweh” – later (El get’s thrown out).

God called “Elohim” – latest (El get sucked back in, combined with Yahweh, and the fact that the word was originally plural gets ignored).

It makes perfect sense to me. Especially after two beers.

Sheshbazzar

A few hints, carefully read Genesis 18, (I recommend that you have an Interlinear Hebrew text, or a Torah if you are Hebrew literate) take careful note of how and where the Name YHWH is used, and how the text tells of Abraham's meeting with three men, whom he addresses in his conversation in both the singular and plural forms. in v. 1-8, and what "THEY said unto him," in v. 9, and what "HE (YHWH) said" , in v. 10, and 13-15, and how "the men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with THEM to bring THEM on the way. And YHWH said,.........and YHWH went His way as soon as He had left communing with Abraham.." v. 18:33.
The sacrosanct reverence for the written text required the retaining of the plural form "Elohim" in the Torah as being inspired and directly received from YHWH.
Though the reasoning might escape some, this text to us, taken in context with others, indicates that THE ELOHIM of the Scriptures is actually a quadra-unity, extant and interacting with nature and with men in four distinct forms.

Loomis

Who was Shachar?

Psalm 139:8~10

If I were to ascend to heaven, you would be there.

If I were to sprawl out in Sheol, there you would be.

If I were to fly away on the wings of Shachar,

and settle down on the other side of the sea,

even there your hand would guide me,

your right hand would grab hold of me.

Buster Daily

Is this a fact? When did this reverence for text arise? Is there any evidence for text being sacrosanct during a period in which these texts were penned/edited? Please forgive my ignorance. I am not positing a counter-position...just curious.

Does it have to be that complicated? In English the word god/God is personified. Why couldn't a word "gods" be personified and then later the knowledge of plurality be lost?

Loomis

Yea!

Me too!

That’s what I meant to ask – but I got all confused.

Buster Daily

I read your earlier post about the evolution of Elohim and that inspired me to comment. It was complete coincidence that we both quoted the same text from Sheshbazzar. I can type fast but, sadly, compose slowly. Creepy nonetheless.

Loomis

Compare to Genesis 14:22, where the absence of sacrosanct reverence for the written text allowed them to insert YHWH in an older story about El.

That’s not an honest or decent thing to do.

They were trying to trick us!