Originally Posted by Julian

My beliefs follow the evidence. A lack of evidence gives rise to a lack of beliefs. My mind is never made up, it changes all the time based on what is reasonable when evaluating the facts. The bible is not evidence of the contents of the bible, except in cases where the claim is reasonable or we have independent verification. Surely, this is a reasonable and rational approach.

Originally Posted by ggazoo

To accept anything "supernatural" is outlandish to us because we can't imagine it outside of our daily routines.

Originally Posted by hatsoff

It's fairly reasonable, sure, and I agree for the most part. But the scientific view is not always appropriate. A more philosophical perspective can lead someone straight to religion. I wouldn't call that an error in judgment, but just a different approach.

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Limitations of imagination have nothing to do with it. It is not accepted because it lacks any credible supporting evidence.

Originally Posted by ggazoo

Atheists refute the Bible, so providing evidence to them is impossible.

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

For purposes of this thread, I will assume that the God of the Bible exists and that he created the universe, but I will not assume that he is good, loving, and fair.

Matthew 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Matthew 7:21-22 say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Because casting out devils is mentioned and Jesus said elsewhere that Satan cannot cast out Satan, we know that the verses are talking about people who are Christians and will lose their salvation, in other words, Christians who deliberately and repeatedly refuse to keep God’s commandments.

Sins of omission and sins of commission are two entirely separate issues. While God will forgive sins of omission, he will not forgive deliberate and repeated sins of commission, as clearly proven by Matthew 7:21-22 which I quoted previously.

Now that I have established that believers are definitely required to obey God’s commandments in order to go to heaven, let’s take a look at the two commandments upon which all of the law and the prophets depend:

Matthew 22:35-40 say “Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.�

Considering the following scriptures, those are impossible and unfair requirements for God to demand of skeptics if they wish to go to heaven:

Exodus 4:11 says "And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?" If a human caused a person to become deaf or blind, he would be sent to prison, and with Christians’ blessings I might add.

Revelation 9:1-6 say "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them."

Revelation 14:9-11 say "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

To require of skeptics that in order for them to go to heaven they must love and obey the God who is described in the aforementioned scriptures would be as impossible a task for them as it would be for them to believe that 2+2=5. In other words, God has stacked the deck against skeptics.

There are literally thousands of good reasons for people not to trust the Bible. One very good reason is that any rational and/or loving being who wanted people to accept him and not go to hell would makes the odds 100% that everyone would know of his existence and that he had their best interests at heart. He would confirm subjective spiritual/emotional experience with objective tangible experiences. Some of the texts claim that he did exactly that, but we know that for some strange and unexplained reason he has abandoned that approach today. John 2:23 says “Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.� John 3:2 says “The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.� In the NIV, John 10:37-38 say "Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." In the KJV, Matthew 4:24 says "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them."

It is interesting to note that the texts say that BOTH SIDES acknowledged that Jesus had supernatural powers. The Pharisees believed that Jesus had supernatural powers, but that his powers came from Beelzebub. Today, both sides DO NOT acknowledge that God has supernatural powers, so the evidence that we have today is not nearly the same as it supposedly was back then.

It is quite suspicious that God on some occasions maximized the odds to 100% that people would know about his existence and his supernatural powers, only to completely abandon his supposed purpose of giving humans sufficient evidence of his existence and supernatural powers. This evidence alone is all that rational minded people need to reject the God of the Bible.

In spite of the supposed facts that Jesus performed many miracles, and that after he rose from the dead was seen by over 500 people, in the NIV, Acts 14:3 says "So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to do miraculous signs and wonders." Do Christians not find it strange that there was a need for such confirmations?

At best, if the God of the Bible exists, he is inconsistent, bi-polar, or amoral. At worst, he is a monster and should be rejected. Creating the universe most certainly does not give anyone a license to act like God acts, and creating the universe most certainly does not give a supposedly loving God the right to make impossible demands of skeptics when he is easily able to clearly show himself to everyone so that everyone who rejected him would have to admit that they had made fully informed decisions. If heaven and hell are actually at stake, the only kinds of decisions that would be fair would be fully informed decisions. God could not possibly have anything to lose by clearly showing himself to everyone, and mankind would have everything to gain if he did so. True love, tolerance, and forgiveness could never do anything less.

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Based on the relationship Yahweh and Moses had, do you think Moses would have wanted to continue that relationship forever?
Do you think Yahweh would have wanted it, the god who was often chasing Moses around in order to kill him?...

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Death. It's an essential first step.