FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-04-2006, 05:35 PM   #1
J-D
Moderator - General Religious Discussions
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 27,330
Default God in the Old and New Testaments

In another thread, Jaggers said:
Quote:
Looking at the Old Testament and the New Testament, God's character appears quite different. The God of the Old Testament, portrayed for example in Judges 21, Jeremiah 13:12, 1 Samuel 15:3, and Joshua 6:15, often seems brutal, vengeful, and even savage. On the other hand, in the New Testament, God is described as a loving, caring, compasionate being (see for ex. John 4:16-19, 1 John 4:9-10, Romans 6:23, 1 Corinthians 13:4-13). Such a conflict is easily explained if the Bible is accepted as simply a collection of stories, myths, legends, and partial histories that are exemplary of the values and beliefs of particular cultures from which they originated, but much more difficult to reconcile if the Bible is presupposed to be true. How should this conflicting nature of God be reconciled without rejecting the Bible as a literal account of God's communication and interaction with humanity?
I objected:
Quote:
God is described as loving, caring, and compassionate in the Old Testament, not just in the New Testament. And he is brutal, vengeful, and savage in the New Testament, not just in the Old Testament.
And Jaggers challenged me:
Quote:
I don't want to derail this thread, but have you ever really read the Old and New Testaments closely? Are you going to seriously argue that the predominant attributes of God in the Old Testament match well against those in the New?? I'm sure you can come up with examples of God acting benevolently in the Old and brutally in the New, but I'm talking about the predominant or "stand-out" attributes....the point is that the "character" of God changes dramatically throughout the course of the Bible...a phenomenon which makes sense if you think of the Bible as just a collection of stories arising from particular cultural circumstances of Hebrew and Hellenistic societies, but is very problematic if the Bible is taken as humanity's sole direct communication with an eternal omnimax creator deity.
So in order to avoid derailing that thread, and because a moderator correctly pointed out that this stuff was really off-topic for that forum, I’m starting this thread to respond.

Yes, Jaggers, I absolutely agree that the Bible is a heterogeneous collection of material and that God figures quite differently in different parts of it. That’s exactly why I think it’s wrong to make a blanket distinction between an ‘Old Testament God’ and a ‘New Testament God’. Both the so-called ‘Old Testament’ and the so-called ‘New Testament’ are themselves heterogeneous compilations, and God figures quite differently in different parts of both. In substantial parts of both, God is not a prominent character at all (in the Book of Esther, God isn’t even mentioned). The theology of Micah, of Job, and of Ecclesiastes, for example, are quite different. And in my opinion, the New Testament Book of Revelation is far more bloodthirsty than anything I know of in the Old Testament.
J-D is offline  
Old 09-04-2006, 07:14 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: The Bible Belt (Texas)!
Posts: 592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-D View Post
Yes, Jaggers, I absolutely agree that the Bible is a heterogeneous collection of material and that God figures quite differently in different parts of it. That’s exactly why I think it’s wrong to make a blanket distinction between an ‘Old Testament God’ and a ‘New Testament God’. Both the so-called ‘Old Testament’ and the so-called ‘New Testament’ are themselves heterogeneous compilations, and God figures quite differently in different parts of both. In substantial parts of both, God is not a prominent character at all (in the Book of Esther, God isn’t even mentioned). The theology of Micah, of Job, and of Ecclesiastes, for example, are quite different. And in my opinion, the New Testament Book of Revelation is far more bloodthirsty than anything I know of in the Old Testament.
For clarity's sake, here is the thread J-D references:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=177896

Your assertion that "it's wrong" to make a distinction between the 'Old Testament God' and the 'New Testament God' is nonsensical. The question that I formulated was making a generalization about the "character" of God based on the amalgamation of his actions, decrees, and values as depicted and expressed in the Old and the New Testaments. If you're right that we can't make any generalizations about the God of the Old or of the New Testament, then why even have this dichotomy of "Old Testament" vs "New Testament" at all?

If you're arguing something to the effect of "'Old Testament' vs 'New Testament' categorizations are 'synthetic' and therefore not valid bases for making generalizations," then this is a facile way of thinking, and completely misses the purpose of the questions being asked in the original thread. Whether such a categorization is valid depends on the purpose for which the distinction is being drawn. In this case, Christians draw the distinction between the Old and New Testament on theological grounds. The target audience of the questions I posed is your average group of evangelical Christians. The purpose of my question #5 in the original thread was to point out to said group of Christians the heterogeneous character of God in different parts of the Bible. The dichotomy of "Old Testament God" vs "New Testament God" is a natural one since it is one that they themselves make, and, based on my general experience with such Christians, they are unlikely to be familiar with much of what is portrayed about him in the Old Testament. In my view, it was more effective to make the point broadly in terms that they themselves use and understand than attempt to describe a number of esoteric contradictions and differences grounded in obscure Biblical Criticism and History analysis that would be lost on your average evangelical, who likely isn't particularly well-read in his Bible.
Jaggers is offline  
Old 09-04-2006, 10:19 PM   #3
J-D
Moderator - General Religious Discussions
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 27,330
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggers View Post
For clarity's sake, here is the thread J-D references:
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=177896

Your assertion that "it's wrong" to make a distinction between the 'Old Testament God' and the 'New Testament God' is nonsensical. The question that I formulated was making a generalization about the "character" of God based on the amalgamation of his actions, decrees, and values as depicted and expressed in the Old and the New Testaments. If you're right that we can't make any generalizations about the God of the Old or of the New Testament, then why even have this dichotomy of "Old Testament" vs "New Testament" at all?

If you're arguing something to the effect of "'Old Testament' vs 'New Testament' categorizations are 'synthetic' and therefore not valid bases for making generalizations," then this is a facile way of thinking, and completely misses the purpose of the questions being asked in the original thread. Whether such a categorization is valid depends on the purpose for which the distinction is being drawn. In this case, Christians draw the distinction between the Old and New Testament on theological grounds. The target audience of the questions I posed is your average group of evangelical Christians. The purpose of my question #5 in the original thread was to point out to said group of Christians the heterogeneous character of God in different parts of the Bible. The dichotomy of "Old Testament God" vs "New Testament God" is a natural one since it is one that they themselves make, and, based on my general experience with such Christians, they are unlikely to be familiar with much of what is portrayed about him in the Old Testament. In my view, it was more effective to make the point broadly in terms that they themselves use and understand than attempt to describe a number of esoteric contradictions and differences grounded in obscure Biblical Criticism and History analysis that would be lost on your average evangelical, who likely isn't particularly well-read in his Bible.
Well ... you're right. You didn't have to rub it in so hard.
J-D is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:55 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.