storytime

Your dating of Zechariah may be correct but what does that have to do with conquest of the Promised Land as it is yet to this day still unconquered? Else, the Israeli's would not be fighting over territory today. "The promise" was always a promise, a forever strategy of war maybe, or for the sole purpose of propaganda in encouragement to gain supremacy. Wasn't the land of Canaan won and division given by lots to each tribe, and not all tribes could hold their land? So the promise continued as part of the story in the tradition it was given?

How do you read the commandments? As given only to the Israelites or to the whole world?

Sheshbazzar

Did you notice that portion of your post that I was careful to bold?
Your reference to "other than being victims of war and then only the young virgins were saved alive." would seem to indicate that you were referring to the events that took place in the far past????
That is, long -before- the time of the Prophet Zechariah, and those -times to come- that he was prophesying about. Yes? No???

Or are you really intending to indicate that sometime in the -future- Israel is going to again engage in a further genocidal slaughter, making -more- victims
out of entire nations, and that they will yet once again take up the collecting of "the young virgins alive" for themselves????
Because as you have worded it thus far, this certainly seems to be the idea that you are attempting to present.
Otherwise your allusion to "young virgins alive" has no relationship to a discussion of the -future- events being portrayed in Zech.14:16-19 when there will be religious forced conformity on all. (a thing that is also indicated in many other verses in both The Old, and in The New Testement.) After all, Do expect various religions, religious beliefs, or doctrinal differences to continue in manifestation and final realisation of that perfect Kingdom which is to come? Wherein "all that are left out of the Nations shall go up to Y'rushalom... to worship The King, YHWH Tzabboth"?

But that is the type of confusion that arises when one attempts switching horses in the middle of a stream.

I am fully aware that the Promise did not deliver the first time around-
(in spite of the many assertions in the Book of Joshua, that they did indeed conquer "ALL" of the land that was Promised)
-and that the faithful have ever since been looking -forward- to that Promise to be finally fulfilled in the future.
But few expect or teach that it is going to be accomplished by the nation of Israel again engaging in similar mass killings of men, women, children, and babes in arms, excepting young virgins, which they will yet again get to keep for their own "use".

How few believe that this is what is going to come, I do not know, as you are the first person that I've ever known to even suggest such a thing.

Sheshbazzar

Gentiles were not a people of God, not given any inheritance of laws or circumcision or covenants, due to their not being circumcised and not having been given any laws at Sinai.

storytime

"Yes? No??" What about, Whatever? I don't know, but maybe keeping the virgins was before the days of Zechariah. Doesn't Genesis say something about slaves being "food" for Gods people, those that would be captured and enslaved and thus producers, workers for the Israelites, and others of no value to be killed?

When did Israel ever make servants out of entire nations? Seven nations were not conquered by Israelites and Israelites blamed for not killing all and so these nations God said he left to be a thorn in their side, says the prophet.

No, I didn't intend to imply that Israel would again employ slavery. Although a few rabbi's seemed to think it ok to impose their Noahide laws on Gentiles in America, excluding Jews, courtesy of big daddy Bush in 1991 as a complimentary factor to Shneerson. More or less politics, I would imagine. Whatever, I personally find their imagined laws offensive, especially if the Jewish rabbi's actually believe a person should die for blasphemy, a Jewish religious law.

Many Christians believe that the future end time will enact the Hebrew godman Jesus as the one god that all people on earth will worship. However, I read the OT bible story as saying that all Jews in their generations throughout the world, "they that are left out of the nations"[tribes, tribal names], will make their pilgrimage to Jerusalem in their custom of celebrating their religious feast day or holy days, and if they do not, then they will be essentially cursed[no rain].

Maybe the religious Jews who have an extremist belief expect their god to hand them the world on a silver platter or something by killing all the Gentiles in the world. Jews are weird creatures sometimes so we probably should keep an eye on both them and the Christian fundamentalists who believe in the supernatural. Atheist survivval might depend on it.

Sheshbazzar

Thanks storytime, as you may detect I have taken time to read some of your postings in other threads.
Our perceptions of the situation really are not all that far apart, other than as here some details of how we might interpret Zechariah or some such.
And I'm certain that if we were ever to meet in face to face discussion, we could work out any differences in just a few minutes of conversation.
It is all to easy to misunderstand what another persons actual thoughts and positions are from just a few posts on the internet.

Cheers, Shesh.

gdeering

An important thought I'll have to ponder. Or perhaps I've been watching too many (pseudo)science-fiction cable TV adventure/soap-operas.


Gregg

Josh111485

Did the Bible give people justification for slavery? I wonder if at some point at least one slave-holder said, "Of course I can keep slaves, it says I can right here in God's holy book. If slavery is ok with God, it's ok with me." I wonder.

Toto

You don't have to wonder. Up until the middle of the 19th century, good Christians did justify slavery by pointing to the Bible, especially in the American South. Christian pastors preached sermons on the question. The Confederacy was a faith based nation, opposed to the godless liberals of the north who wanted to abolish God's holy economic system. There are still some dominionist Christians who justify slavery - check out Gary North and the Chalcedon Foundation.

A little googling will bring up an embarrassment of sources - religious tolerance: the Bible on Slavery

storytime

:notworthy: And thank you Sheshbazzar, your kindness of my ignorance is most appreciated.

Let me give another note on "the promise" or "promised land" as it's called. In the OT, Israelites not being able to hold the land[possess the land] through military might, allowed the promise to continue. Israelites lost wars and thus their previously held land went into the hands of others. But the promise, in their tradition of belief, did not cease in its everlasting expectancy. In order to "possess" the land, the Israelites must hold the land. However,they not only lost their land through wars, but also through intermarriage which took its toll on Jewish identity. Then the argument of who was a Jew and who was not came into play. There was difference of opinion. Some prophets said blood ties ruled identity in kindred, Hebrew "tongues" and tribes[nations], while others believed loyalty to Judaism equalized the mix. ("Ye must be circumcised and keep[observe] the law of Moses".) Some converts were accepted as equal to bloodline Jews and some were not. If not accepted as equal to the Jew, then what good was circumcision? (Paul, NT)

All ancient people seemed to have owned slaves as a normal part of their lives. Treatment of slaves probably varied from culture to culture. The Jews were eventually forced to eliminate slavery by the Church, and intermarriage of Christians with Jews. Finally, slavery was abolished in America and now we have a brand new president and progress achieved in "faith is the thing hoped for in evidence not seen". The light of hope is now seen andrealized and is burning bright for America today.

Toto

Where are you getting this? Jews were only finally forced to elimate slavery at the same time Christians were, and for the same reasons - through the military action of the Union Army and the Emancipation Proclamation of President Lincoln.