Originally Posted by Bernard Muller

B) Hegesippus: "he turned and knelt down and said,
'I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.'"
This is similar of Ac 7:60, for Stephen "he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them""

Cordially, Bernard

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Even more similar to Luke 23:34. (I regard this as authentically Lukan despite the textual problem.)

Andrew Criddle

Originally Posted by maryhelena

You tell me - I've no idea...

Ah - trick question.....:notworthy:

Paul lives in the pages of his epistles.....:thumbs:

Nice....

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

How did Paul die?

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hi Andrew,

When you say "authentically Lukan" what does that mean?

Jake

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

Hi Mary, yes, I have that in mind. Paul is very much the "paper Apostle."

As R.Price noted, Paul had come to the Corinthians three times by epistles, each constituting a separate witness to Paul's message. 2 Cor. 13;1-2. If the "comings" had been physical visits by the historical Paul, or even if all the letters to the Corinthians had been written by the alleged historical Paul, the appeal to "two or three witnesses" would be meaningless.

The "spirit of Paul" sent forth his own emissaries in the form of the bearers of his posthumous letters. The epistles in reality were written by later followers,
channeling what Paul "would have said;" thus the appeal to each emissary as a witness.

Paul is always just over the horizon, performing mighty deeds, hovering between life and death, delaying his entrance to heaven to help his followers (again R.Price), adding his own sufering to that of Christ.

But the question remains, How did Paul die, or did he only live once?

Jake

Originally Posted by jakejonesiv

According to the early heretical sect the Algoi, Cerinthus was the true author of the Gospel of John and Book of Revelation. This fits well with Rev 1:1 where the book is given by an angel. The Letters to the Seven Churches (contained in Revelation chapters 2 and 3) were written by Cerinthus.

Cerinthus' hatred for all things Pauline is well established. When we look at the practices targeted by the Letters to the Seven Churches, many of the things point by point are accusations thrown at Paul. Even the letter format itself is a reflection of "Paul" who is the preminent apostle who manifests himself by letters. So while the Pauline Corinthian Epistles reflect the dispute with the Cerinthians from the Pauline perspective, the Letters to the Seven Churches represent the opposing view.

The letters attack "those who call themselves apostles, and they are not" and are found to be false (Rev 2:2). This is precisley the charge answered by 1 Cor. 9:1-2 "Am I am not an apostle? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you."

The letters attack "the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not." (Rev 2:9). Compare that with "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;" 1 Cor. 9:20.

'For instance, I have held that the reference in Rev. ii. 8 to " the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan," is to the Pauline or other Gentilising Jew-Christists. ' _A Short History of Christianity_ , Preface, John M. Robertson.

The letters opposes those who "commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols." (Rev 2:20). On these subjects (including the eating of things sacrificed to idols 1 Cor 10:19) we read "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not." 1 Cor. 10:23.

One of the Revelation letters is to Laodicea. It is well known that one of Marcion's Pauline epistles was addressed to the Laodiceans, subsequently known as the Epistle to the Ephesians.

Jake Jones IV

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Hi Jake

Several ancient manuscripts of Luke leave out the Father forgive passage. I think the passage was part of the original text of Luke and was omitted by copyists who thought Jesus was being too forgiving towards his killers.

Andrew Criddle

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Bingo! I hit the jackpot - now why can't I win the lotto.......

Well, with this scenario - perhaps Paul does not die at all - he is still very much with us - especially so for some ahistoricists/mythicists....:constern01:

Love that, the "paper Apostle"....

The NT figure of Paul is just an advance in early christian theology/philosophy. And, although he has had a nearly 2000 year innings, intellectual evolution does not stand still forever. Yep, sometimes ideas get stuck - but the push for intellectual evolution is impossible to circumvent...

So - Paul will not die until the literal interpretation of the whole NT story dies....i.e. the NT myth of christian origins must die.