Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ted Hoffman · 11-17-2004, 05:31 AM

Below is an 'open letter' I wrote to Doherty after his revelation that he may, in future, spend more time on issues of rationalism and start by countering Lee Strobel's latest work (the title escaped me).

I think this is about being at a crossroads between addressing the narrow field of NT scholarship, or opening the minds of the greater masses to rationality and critical thinking. It's about watering the plants so that the roots can penetrate the hard strata of theology and apologetics.

I think its a case of one catastrophy shifting our priorities and focusing our efforts on areas that can bring about more change in the planet. A case of the war being upgraded from the small field of HJ/MJ issues to the stadium of religion vs rationality.

Its a situation where the scales have shifted and creationism, wearing the garb of Intelligent Design, walks in the streets unchallenged and will introduced in school curriculums as an alternative to evolution and the Big Bang theory, and where Biblical literalism and belief in miracles is the norm and homophobia is fashionable.

Share your thoughts please.

Here goes.

Quote:

I was thinking about your 'decision' to move away from NT scholarship, and I shared my disappointment with a friend who was equally disappointed with your impending 'orphaning' of the Jesus Myth theory.

He exclaimed in an exasperated manner: 'Do we need another Farrel Till?'. I think the point he meant to make was that there were others already dealing ably with the issue of rationalism, atheism and other general issues regarding religion and skepticism, and that the Jesus Myth theory needed you more.

Initially, we were preoccupied with the manner in which the likes of Freke and Archaya would squander any little respectability that the Jesus Myth, through you, may have garnered so far and as the fog what we saw as the inevitability of the waning of the respectability of the Jesus Myth theory wafted off, I began to ask myself what really was more important.

I had to ask myself why anyone who had clearly invaded the strongholds of NT scholarship, someone who had spent over a decade researching on a subject and publishing an influential book on it, why such a person would abandon it and venture into another 'area'.

Why would someone who was having 'allies' in the NT scholarship - Price, Doughty etc - abandon the quest and saunter off to a more 'general' field?

In the short term, What would it spell for the fate of the Jesus myth theory if the 'battle' was left between a few loose cannons (e.g. Archaya) and some comedians (Freke and Gandy) on the one hand, and earnest, equipped, sharp, relentless and dominant NT scholars on the other hand?

A disaster of sorts.

I had to ask myself which one was more important after the Bush victory - a quest to open up people's minds or the narrow field of NT scholarship?

I had to admit that even the Jesus Myth will remain unappreciated by many if the society is still full of ignorant masses. As Zindler said, in the wake of the Bush victory, "The general anti-intellectual and anti-liberal stance of much of the American populace will be further encouraged, while secular principles and humanistic values will be in ever greater danger of being swamped by religious fanaticism and superstition. While the rest of the developed world is moving increasingly toward social and intellectual enlightenment, America sinks more and more into medievalism."

After giving it more thought, I had to admit that, overall, humanity needs rationalism and science more than it needs to know a HJ never existed. So, I disabuse you of any accusation of 'orphaning' the Jesus Myth that you reawakened and revitalized and support you in your new quest.

Jacob

Read Zindler's article, The Morning After

Chili · 11-17-2004, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

America sinks more and more into medievalism."

Very good but I must object to this statement because medievalism was, or was near the high point of our culture and modern Americanism is about it's low point.

11-17-2004, 10:54 AM

So there is now no one of note arguing for the Jesus Myth. I suppose Doherty realised he was getting nowhere and decided to pick on easier targets like Strobel. Still, I'm surprised he thinks writing bog standard anti-apologetics to refute bog-standard apologists is a worthy use of his time.

Ironic, don't you think, that the nearest to a Jesus Myth supporter still standing, Robert Price, is a Bush supporter.

Yours

Bede

Chili · 11-17-2004, 11:12 AM

Before you can tell the myth you must also know the rest of the story and those who know usually don't say.

Toto · 11-17-2004, 11:19 AM

This topic is veering away from the purpose of this forum, but I hesitate to throw it to the wolves in PD.

It is clear that, whatever historical status Jesus has, he is a vital figure in current American politics. The religious left will try to reestablish the hippie-socialist Jesus to bash the religious right, which prefers Mel Gibson's triumphant warrior Jesus. Does any of this have anything to do with history?

The academics are not flocking to Jesus Mythicism, but neither have they produced the defininitive historicist rebuttal.

Vorkosigan · 11-17-2004, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bede

So there is now no one of note arguing for the Jesus Myth. I suppose Doherty realised he was getting nowhere and decided to pick on easier targets like Strobel. Still, I'm surprised he thinks writing bog standard anti-apologetics to refute bog-standard apologists is a worthy use of his time.

Yeah, I complained about the same thing. It's not like Strobel hasn't been decisively refuted, and those who do not care are not likely to listen to Doherty if they didn't listen to the previous refutations.

Quote:

Ironic, don't you think, that the nearest to a Jesus Myth supporter still standing, Robert Price, is a Bush supporter.
Bede

That's an interesting piece of information. How did you find that out?

Vorkosigan

11-17-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

That's an interesting piece of information. How did you find that out?

Here: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/mi_iraq.htm

At first I thought it was a satire as it is so extreme. But he has other articles on the same sort of thing. (http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/mi_kerry.htm)

Oh well, I don't like his scholarship or his politics.

B

Toto · 11-17-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

I am a Republican and a George W. Bush fan

Robert M Price's blog

His foreign policy is not something that the historical Jesus would endorse.

Robert Price is a former evangelical and kept his southern evangelical politics even when he lost his belief in god/historical Jesus. But there were a lot of atheists who supported Bush - most notably Christopher Hitchens, and all of those neo-con former Trotskyites.

Is the problem with liberalism in the US that it relied on Jesus to support its social policies - and the right stole Jesus from under its nose? Can Jesus be rescued from the clutches of the Campus Crusade for Christ? Is there a rational basis for the welfare state if you don't believe in Jesus? If Jesus didn't exist, do we have to invent him?

gregor · 11-17-2004, 03:34 PM

Yeah, it's too bad that people are not all the same, with the same agendas and opinions.

Chili · 11-17-2004, 04:47 PM

. . . while rules and overules with justice and equity. I think Jesus became a senator himself when he moved into the "upper room" after he left all the garbage behind that the former politics of Joseph had piled on him.

11-17-2004, 04:47 PM	#10
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Thank God for the Senate . . . while rules and overules with justice and equity. I think Jesus became a senator himself when he moved into the "upper room" after he left all the garbage behind that the former politics of Joseph had piled on him.

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11-17-2004, 10:54 AM	#3
Bede Guest Posts: n/a	So there is now no one of note arguing for the Jesus Myth. I suppose Doherty realised he was getting nowhere and decided to pick on easier targets like Strobel. Still, I'm surprised he thinks writing bog standard anti-apologetics to refute bog-standard apologists is a worthy use of his time. Ironic, don't you think, that the nearest to a Jesus Myth supporter still standing, Robert Price, is a Bush supporter. Yours Bede

11-17-2004, 11:12 AM	#4
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Before you can tell the myth you must also know the rest of the story and those who know usually don't say.

11-17-2004, 11:19 AM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This topic is veering away from the purpose of this forum, but I hesitate to throw it to the wolves in PD. It is clear that, whatever historical status Jesus has, he is a vital figure in current American politics. The religious left will try to reestablish the hippie-socialist Jesus to bash the religious right, which prefers Mel Gibson's triumphant warrior Jesus. Does any of this have anything to do with history? The academics are not flocking to Jesus Mythicism, but neither have they produced the defininitive historicist rebuttal.

11-17-2004, 03:34 PM	#9
gregor Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 932	Yeah, it's too bad that people are not all the same, with the same agendas and opinions.

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