Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Net2004 · 12-28-2004, 06:17 AM

Hello

there are 2 versions of how judas died.the christians that i know try to explain it away by saying that the version mentioned in acts about judas falling on his face and have his abdomen gush out is a PARABLE and shouldn't be taken literal.What are the problems that you can think of with this interpretation?

Vinnie · 12-28-2004, 08:28 AM

Are you the one who emailed me this:

Quote:

Greetings Vinnie one of My christian friends has offered a response to one of your posts at infidel.org regarding the rip off from the ot about juda's betrayal.

Firstly, The version in Matthew is the only version depicting the precise way in which Judas died. None of the other Gosepls actually say anything about the death of Judas, and although Acts "appears" to say something, it is not actually what you think.

Let me quote the verse in Acts in question:

Act 1:18 Indeed, then, this one purchased a field with the reward of unrighteousness. And falling headlong, he burst apart in the middle, and all his bowels gushed out.

If you look upon the above scripture you will notice that Judas purchased a field with the reward of unrighteousness. So what so that mean? It is actually a parable and a referrence to scripture in the Torah, and what it means is that, by his own evil deeds, Judas caused his own death. The "field" is in referrence to a burial place, or a tomb. This is evidenced by many like scriptures within the Torah. Here, I will list a few:

Gen 25:10 the field which Abraham bought from the sons of Heth. Abraham and Sarah his wife were buried there.

Gen 49:30 in the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, the field which Abraham bought from Ephron the Hittite for a burying-place.

Gen 50:13 For his sons carried him to the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah, which Abraham bought with the field for a burying place from Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

BNH: As a layman in the field of debating fundamentalist i would tackle this by asking where do the verses quoted above from the ot tell us that thier burial was because of evil deeds?if he wants to interpret something like "he burst open" as a parable then why wasn't his evil deeds parables why wasn't the other account which differs from acts a parable? am i on the right way bro vinnie?
he continues to say that it was a prable and admitting that the nt authours where applying ot events to thier jesus.
strange isn't it that fundamentalist use escuses that becuase there are similarities in the events then it automatically implies prophecy.

He continues:

Thus, Judas reaped what he sowed. Also, the "falling headlong" is in referrence to Judas rushing towards certain death for his betrayal of Jesus. The "bursting apart in the middle and his bowels gushed out" is also a parable and a quote from events in the Torah.

You see, Peter was using OT scripture to draw a comparrison between the death of Judas and events known in OT scripture. Peter also believed that the death of Judas and the events surrounding the betrayal of David mirrored each other because of the similar circumstances, and he declared the death of Judas as a prophecy.

Observe Acts 1:16, which plays into Acts: 1:18:

Act 1:16 Men, brothers, this Scripture must have been fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit by the mouth of David spoke before concerning Judas, who became guide to those who seized Jesus.

Therefore, you can see how Peter draws a comparrison between the betrayal of Christ and the betrayal of David. He views the betrayal of David as a prophecy of the betrayal of Christ.

Hence, Acts 1:18 does not actually give us the method by which Judas actually died, but a parable, and it gives us the reason why he comitted suicide;

"Betrayal."

Any way my friend i hope you will help me respond to him

thank you

My response:

Thats a joke. Christians trully are a desperate creature.

The accounts give contradictory fates of Judas.

No one would ever dream of saying luke is not describing a death of Judas is they weren't purposefully trying to reconcile it with Matthew. We'd read it and understand it for what it is. Not to mention the onther details and complete lack of overlap between the accounts in this scenario...

Vinnie

Vinnie · 12-28-2004, 08:33 AM

Your friend has no idea about ancient history and ascribing codign enings to infamous characters. Tell him/her to do a little reading. Also, your friend has no idea what a "parable" even is. That account is anything but a parable. In no sense imaginable is that little aside in Luke (Acts 1) a parable. Thats as bad as calling it a sayings or a miracle story.

And it doesn't say J fell on his face. That is what those who try to reconcile it with Matthew say. "And laying prostrate he burst open" is more correct IMO.

Vinnie

Net2004 · 12-28-2004, 11:34 AM

Yes thats me

fta · 12-28-2004, 02:38 PM

And according to St Papias, Judas didn't hang himself or explode in a field - he was run over by a chariot. Go figure.

12-28-2004, 06:17 AM	#1
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	Is the version of judas's death mentioned in acts a parable? Hello there are 2 versions of how judas died.the christians that i know try to explain it away by saying that the version mentioned in acts about judas falling on his face and have his abdomen gush out is a PARABLE and shouldn't be taken literal.What are the problems that you can think of with this interpretation?

12-28-2004, 11:34 AM	#4
Net2004 Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: U.K Posts: 217	v Yes thats me

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12-28-2004, 08:33 AM	#3
Vinnie Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Waterbury, Ct, Usa Posts: 6,523	Your friend has no idea about ancient history and ascribing codign enings to infamous characters. Tell him/her to do a little reading. Also, your friend has no idea what a "parable" even is. That account is anything but a parable. In no sense imaginable is that little aside in Luke (Acts 1) a parable. Thats as bad as calling it a sayings or a miracle story. And it doesn't say J fell on his face. That is what those who try to reconcile it with Matthew say. "And laying prostrate he burst open" is more correct IMO. Vinnie

12-28-2004, 02:38 PM	#5
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	And according to St Papias, Judas didn't hang himself or explode in a field - he was run over by a chariot. Go figure.

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