Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Chris Weimer · 10-12-2004, 04:57 PM

OK - so after more research, because one can never do enough research, I've come to conclude that Eisenman is wrong about James as the Mashkil. However, there are two new things that are yet unconfirmed. One is a redating of the pesher to a later date, which would agree with Eisenman; and an other is that Eisenman changing his mind on his theory. What's going on?

Also: does anyone know where I can get the full Habakkuk pesher in original hebrew online? Or even in a book? I'm working through Hebrew, and I think it'll be good practice. (heh)

PS - Burrows, one of the original, changed my mind. Should have read him first.

Toto · 10-12-2004, 05:33 PM

Did you mean to post this in BCH?

Chris Weimer · 10-12-2004, 05:54 PM

Yes of course, but for some reason I was reading "Bible" as NT, something I should not do. Please, moderator, feel free to move it to its proper place.

Cynthia of Syracuse · 10-12-2004, 08:11 PM

Hold on to your hats, off to BC&H.

spin · 10-13-2004, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

OK - so after more research, because one can never do enough research, I've come to conclude that Eisenman is wrong about James as the Mashkil. However, there are two new things that are yet unconfirmed. One is a redating of the pesher to a later date, which would agree with Eisenman;

The only thing I've heard of here is work by a fellow who attempts to call into doubt the C14 dating of pHab, because he doesn't like it. The dating accords well with the other datings -- except for those outside the normally acceptible range of distribution, eg pPsalms. It's very hard to question a dating which reflects the bulk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

and an other is that Eisenman changing his mind on his theory. What's going on?

From what I understand he has been forced to surreptitiously pull out from the James = the Teacher of Righteousness formula, probably because of the untenability of his position in the face of the C14. Of course, if the attempted revisionism of pHab's C14 dating takes off, he can slide back into the James = ToR equation.

spin

Rick Sumner · 10-13-2004, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

From what I understand he has been forced to surreptitiously pull out from the James = the Teacher of Righteousness formula, probably because of the untenability of his position in the face of the C14.

He has? Since when? Has he published anything to that effect?

Regards,
Rick Sumner

spin · 10-13-2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Sumner

He has? Since when? Has he published anything to that effect?

I try to pick my adverbs carefully, Rick. "surreptitiously", for example. Where does he make the equation in his James Brother of Jesus doorstopper? I'm only working from memory here. I saw him in 2002 and he said nothing of it then. He just bitched about the C14.

spin

Rick Sumner · 10-13-2004, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

I try to pick my adverbs carefully, Rick. "surreptitiously", for example.

I noticed

I just wasn't sure if you meant that he'd published something and seemed to have silently dropped it, or if he was doing it utterly undercover.

Quote:

Where does he make the equation in his James Brother of Jesus doorstopper?

I don't believe he's ever quite so bold as to state it explicitly (I could be mistaken, it's a huge book, and far too much effort to hunt through it for it), but on the first page of the introduction he observes:

"In so far as the "Righteous Teacher" in the Dead Sea Scrolls occupies a similar position, the parallels between the two and the respective communities they led narrow considerably, even to the point of convergence."

He implies it heavily throughout.

Regards,
Rick Sumner

Editted to add:
A quick google turns up a previous book "James the Just in the Habakkuk Pesher," which may have more on the identification of James with the ToR. Alas, I can't see myself spending anything for another book by Eisenman, so I'll probably be left to speculate.

Chris Weimer · 10-13-2004, 09:56 AM

I heard from Yahoo! Groups Dead_Sea_Scrolls group, a quote if I may:

"It has been reported that Eisenman has 'changed his mind'. It hasn't
been verified that this is the case, nor is it clear exactly what he
changed his mind about. But when asked about he 'new book' this was the
response reported."

Chris Weimer · 10-13-2004, 11:58 PM

also, do you know where I can find the Habakkuk Pesher in Hebrew? Or maybe the Damascus document? Preferably online, if you can...

If not, what is a good book for these publishings. I already own Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered with some DSS originals, anything like that, maybe?

10-12-2004, 04:57 PM	#1
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Eisenman and the Habakkuk Pesher OK - so after more research, because one can never do enough research, I've come to conclude that Eisenman is wrong about James as the Mashkil. However, there are two new things that are yet unconfirmed. One is a redating of the pesher to a later date, which would agree with Eisenman; and an other is that Eisenman changing his mind on his theory. What's going on? Also: does anyone know where I can get the full Habakkuk pesher in original hebrew online? Or even in a book? I'm working through Hebrew, and I think it'll be good practice. (heh) PS - Burrows, one of the original, changed my mind. Should have read him first.

10-12-2004, 08:11 PM	#4
Cynthia of Syracuse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 2,821	Mod note Hold on to your hats, off to BC&H.

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10-12-2004, 05:33 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Did you mean to post this in BCH?

10-12-2004, 05:54 PM	#3
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Yes of course, but for some reason I was reading "Bible" as NT, something I should not do. Please, moderator, feel free to move it to its proper place.

10-13-2004, 09:56 AM	#9
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	I heard from Yahoo! Groups Dead_Sea_Scrolls group, a quote if I may: "It has been reported that Eisenman has 'changed his mind'. It hasn't been verified that this is the case, nor is it clear exactly what he changed his mind about. But when asked about he 'new book' this was the response reported."

10-13-2004, 11:58 PM	#10
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	also, do you know where I can find the Habakkuk Pesher in Hebrew? Or maybe the Damascus document? Preferably online, if you can... If not, what is a good book for these publishings. I already own Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered with some DSS originals, anything like that, maybe?

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