newtype_alpha

Once again, you are intentionally missing the point and then pretending there is no point to miss. You began this nonsense by saying "there is no small ammount of independence. Independence is independence." We have already shown this is not the case, because there are boundaries of your independence. We call them "laws." If you violate these laws and act independently in ways you are not permitted to act, you are subject to a series of consequences whether you wish them or not. Clearly you have the liberty to break any law and commit any illegal act you wish, any time you wish, to anyone you wish. You can rob a convenience store and three banks in a single ten minute crime spree. If and when the authorities intercept you either during or after the action, your independence will become progressively more and more restricted--you end up in prison, where even the simple dignity of not being sodomized by your fellow inmates is no longer a liberty you posess.

This discussion is slowly degenerating into you sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "La la la la la... talk louder I can't hear you!" If you wish to be juvenile and silly, this discussion will simply end.

seven8s

OMy goodness you have a violent mind, a little projecting there? Or do you even understand that concept? Or are you purposefully trying to offend? Did you notice there was no vulgarity in this conversation until you entered it? I find it interesting that comics who have nothing to offer of substance resort to vulgarity.

Now one more time....................there is no small amount of independence; independence is independence. It is mine and no one can take it from me. Independence is of the mind, but you seem to keep trying to define it, trap it, hence, yourself in the body. I might add your mind seems to be trapped in vulgarity, since vulgarity seems to be your only offer to this conversation.

Now let me quote you from above......................�clearly you have the liberty�. Yes clearly I do, as you have acknowledged. Another shot in the foot? Didn’t you learn the first time?

Now my independence can never be restricted. It’s an inside job. I do that, exercise my independence, by how I choose to think about to what is at hand. It doesn't matter what I choose, I am still experiencing my independence.

You can take chocolate out of the hand of a child, but you cannot take the desire for chocolate out of the same child.

seven8s

Karma has a long history it is difficult to take it onto a short pier.
Then why does the definition of karma state that it is. Did you read the definition at the beginning of my original post. If I must pay back a debt, because of something I did, the mere fact that I must pay back makes it unpardonable. If the debt is cancelled, without payment, only then can it be said to be pardonable. You have not shown that karma pardons anything.

It doesn’t seem like much of a problem unless you would like to intellectually discuss nature/nurture. It is a tedious discussion, do you really want to got there, because I’m game. It shows that your unpahantomable future does fit the facts, and “more of the same� is a problem, a hopeless problem. We can start the conversation with an old proverb; each one teach one.

I gave a perfect example, generational poverty and abuse. You have thus far failed to give an example of your view that holds any value. Now I don’t choose either prospective, hell or karma. Why does that seem to bother you? A “vacuous universal complaint� is just an enlarged ego utilizing big words to support a view. Trying to find wiggle room? Notice I speak plain and simple. Why are you trying to complicate the issue?

You keep sliding all over the place, where is it you want to go? You have proved nothing but my point in the above. In attempting to define human suffering, karma effectively capitalizes, exploits both nature and nurture experiences. Example: every experience is a debt or a reward being paid. Or as you so aptly put it, more of the same.


Immeasurable poverty is hardly bland rhetoric.

Well since you asked..................

Un-phantomable by it’s very definition, like eternal, cannot exist, lacks possibility because it cannot be imagined. The mind cannot conceive it. That which is phantomable is imagined, hence potential energy, potentially obtainable. Discernment, a mixture of fact and fiction, determines, through experience, whether or not the illusion (phantomable) is unphantomable, hence unobtainable.

That is the purpose of life, here and now, one life. Any other existence is redundant, unnecessary, in fact delusional, and only adds to the confusion (mixture of fact and fiction), and is therefore destructive to the process of discernment.


Again you are sliding all over the place. You are trying to compare apples with oranges. The doctor, in the here and now, speaks facts that are measurably, examined, obtained.

Your belief of karma/reincarnation is air, unmeasurable, unable to be examined with concrete proof. In that I cannot abstract anything from it but your belief in it, it is a theory not worthy of time. How about this: Don’t put off until tomorrow what you can do today.

That coming from one who should know............

Answer to your question; No. It would teach the next generation vain good deeds, un-vacuous virtues, dependence vs independence, just to name a few.

Now understand this; You didn’t work to make the future better for the next generation, you worked to make it better for you, because you believed, hence feared, that you will be born into that next generation. Therefore your presumptions that you did make the future better for the next generation is as false as your motivations. Vain, virtues. I think the Christians call that “filthy rags�, not that theirs is any better. I think the scriptures called it trying to patch a new dress from an old dress, pouring old wine into new wine skins, it bursts.

Gees, I wonder where that apathy came from...........the old nature vs nurture, exploited by karma. Keep em' down at all costs.

Again, you are sliding all over the place. We are talking about karma and the effects it has had on the nations of it’s origin, to which you just proved my point. If you want to talk about the effects that the belief system had on any of these nations, start a thread.

Of course you do. You simply refuse to acknowledge that Christianity has it’s own system of virtues. I was simply showing you that they do. You knew what I was doing, you had no response so you claimed ignorance. No ones fooled.

No it has substance...........it puts a little heat to your feet, a little dance in your pants, perhaps to get you moving, given all that “take it easy� BS. It is a revved up version of that karma BS. Sort of like a , "lets get them acting in the here and now". See the problem is, forgiveness.

Does it? Seems like some would try and resist anyway just to see if it really IS futile. And in the end, if that turned out to be the case, they would merely end up with the understanding, "resistence really IS futile" and end up working with it instead of against it.

Maybe a really simple example might help: try and sneeze without closing your eyes. You can't do it; trying to sneeze with your eyes open is futile.
Try to walk from here to the nearest grocery store while holding your breath every step of the way. You can't do it; trying to walk long distances without breathing is futile.

As a matter of fact that example was quite helpful, thank you.

Does the French Resistance ring any bells. Why aren’t we all speaking German today, or Japanese? It didn’t work, why? Resistence. What is resistence? Resistence is an innate process to a perceived attack by an out side source. Resistence is a natural preservative. It preserves life, my life, potentially your life (do you speak German or Japanese?). Notice your two examples. You just proved my point.

The 'holding your breath thing" is about big egos. Sneezing protects against allergens.

Yep, had to look that one up, no shame in that. However you didn’t spell it correctly until I corrected you. Take heart, there’s no shame in that either.

Yes, I am saying exactly that; Forgiveness is the only thing that cancels out a debt, while virtue and atonement are vain, little vacuous (little intelligence, thoughts) virtues. I notice you left the little out of my quote. Forgiveness is an original Christian concept (as far as I can tell), that has nothing to do with hell-fire and brimstone. I have acknowledged that it a concept tainted by modern Christians. Forgiveness is not silly, nor is indefensible. However both hell-fire and karma are. They are opposites of the same coin, perhaps that’s what ticks you off.

Now, as to you vulgarity, it is indefensible. In that you cannot conduct yourself in an appropriate manner I see no use in continuing this conversation. If you have no self respect that's ok with me, I don't need your respect, I have my own...............

KrishnadasaAnudasa

you are limiting the discussion with you interpretations. Regarding religion independence ususually is reagarded as free will, no predestination. YOu admit limitations of freedom and have therefore confined independence to be only of the mind