Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RUmike · 12-26-2003, 11:11 PM

Not quite sure if this belongs here or not, but here it goes...

It would be a safe assumption that the Jesus as depicted in the gospels believed in the storys of the Old Testament, correct? For instance, he mentioned such people as Cain and/or Abel in his teachings, also talked about Jonah and the whale as if it was fact, his genealogies are traced all the way back to Adam, and Moses allegedly appears to the disciples, along with another character of the OT (I forget who).

Now many Christians don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or that the flood really happened, or that Cain and Abel ever lived, etc. How can these people then believe in the Jesus as portrayed in the gospels, since Jesus himself obviously believed such things? If he was in fact God, shouldn't he have known these things to be false (permitting they are false, as at least a decent portions of Christians do believe)?

This is one thing that has never made sense to me. If the Fall never occurred, no need for a savior, right? And how could Jesus be God if he believed in such ridiculous things as Adam and Eve? Please remember that I'm not necessarily asserting that I'm right and Adam and Eve didn't exist, etc, but I'm simply saying that at least some Christians believe that these things are fiction, yet somehow they still believe in Jesus. Does this make sense to anyone?

mark9950 · 12-26-2003, 11:52 PM

Jesus as I read was never a prophsied prophet of the OT,on the contrair he was and still is a false prophet.

Go to any jewish synogogue and ask about jesus and the torah and you will find the truth about jesus and the OT.

Jesus was a man who when spoke was going to be stoned by the people because he teached something blasphemous such as he was God when the OT torah said something different.

He was attempted to be stoned many times for that.The truth is the jewish hebrews read the torah and decided that he was not a God or part of God and if he claimed to be God he must accoring to the torah must be killed by stoning but in his case was crucified by the people for some odd reason.

Either way he was killed.

Doctor X · 12-27-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

If the Fall never occurred, no need for a savior, right?

As far as I know, the Jewish religion did not need a savior prior to the Christian reconfiguration of the myth.

--J.D.

Kattaz · 12-28-2003, 04:28 PM

Read Hebrews; we see here that Jesus is fulfilment of OT.

Doctor X · 12-28-2003, 05:21 PM

According to the writer of Hebrews. . . .

According to my gospel you are all behind in your tithes! A fatwa upon ye all!!

--J. "REPENT!" D.

mark9950 · 12-29-2003, 02:30 AM

Quote:

read Hebrews; we see here that Jesus is fulfilment of OT.

I guess that when I make a prediction and it comes true(I have made 2 predictions and they did come true in time)I can say "I am a prophet of God"

Whats the difference?

Kilgore Trout · 12-31-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kattaz
Read Hebrews; we see here that Jesus is fulfilment of OT.

Hmmmmm the NT says that jesus is a fullfillment of the OT. Big surprise. That's a nice circular argument. You make up a new religion based on a twisting of another religion and your "proof" of it is all in the book of the new religion. Why can't christians ever seem to grasp the idea of the circular argument fallacy? Probably because if they couldn't use fallacies they would have no arguments at all.

my dog earl · 12-31-2003, 03:38 PM

My fundy friend will say "don't sweat the little things, it all comes down to accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour". There is nothing to be said that will detour his thinking.....his mind is made up. The Bible is gospel and nothing anyone can point out in it will make any difference in his thinking. Period.

Doctor X · 01-01-2004, 01:05 AM

Quote:

There is nothing to be said that will detour his thinking.....his mind is made up.

Introduce him to childhood cancer. . . .

--J.D.

boneyard bill · 01-01-2004, 02:56 AM

I don't see the problem. If the myth of the fall is a true myth i.e. if if accurately portrays the human condition, then we need a savior. It isn't necessary for the details of the myth to be true. Adam and Eve did not literally have to exist for the myth to be true because Adam and Eve exist in each of us.

12-26-2003, 11:11 PM	#1
RUmike Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: NJ Posts: 491	Believing in Jesus but not the OT Not quite sure if this belongs here or not, but here it goes... It would be a safe assumption that the Jesus as depicted in the gospels believed in the storys of the Old Testament, correct? For instance, he mentioned such people as Cain and/or Abel in his teachings, also talked about Jonah and the whale as if it was fact, his genealogies are traced all the way back to Adam, and Moses allegedly appears to the disciples, along with another character of the OT (I forget who). Now many Christians don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve, or that the flood really happened, or that Cain and Abel ever lived, etc. How can these people then believe in the Jesus as portrayed in the gospels, since Jesus himself obviously believed such things? If he was in fact God, shouldn't he have known these things to be false (permitting they are false, as at least a decent portions of Christians do believe)? This is one thing that has never made sense to me. If the Fall never occurred, no need for a savior, right? And how could Jesus be God if he believed in such ridiculous things as Adam and Eve? Please remember that I'm not necessarily asserting that I'm right and Adam and Eve didn't exist, etc, but I'm simply saying that at least some Christians believe that these things are fiction, yet somehow they still believe in Jesus. Does this make sense to anyone?

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12-26-2003, 11:52 PM	#2
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	Jesus as I read was never a prophsied prophet of the OT,on the contrair he was and still is a false prophet. Go to any jewish synogogue and ask about jesus and the torah and you will find the truth about jesus and the OT. Jesus was a man who when spoke was going to be stoned by the people because he teached something blasphemous such as he was God when the OT torah said something different. He was attempted to be stoned many times for that.The truth is the jewish hebrews read the torah and decided that he was not a God or part of God and if he claimed to be God he must accoring to the torah must be killed by stoning but in his case was crucified by the people for some odd reason. Either way he was killed.

12-28-2003, 04:28 PM	#4
Kattaz Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Romania Posts: 26	Read Hebrews; we see here that Jesus is fulfilment of OT.

12-28-2003, 05:21 PM	#5
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	According to the writer of Hebrews. . . . According to my gospel you are all behind in your tithes! A fatwa upon ye all!! --J. "REPENT!" D.

12-31-2003, 03:38 PM	#8
my dog earl Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 149	My fundy friend will say "don't sweat the little things, it all comes down to accepting Jesus as your Lord and Saviour". There is nothing to be said that will detour his thinking.....his mind is made up. The Bible is gospel and nothing anyone can point out in it will make any difference in his thinking. Period.

01-01-2004, 02:56 AM	#10
boneyard bill Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Florida Posts: 15,796	I don't see the problem. If the myth of the fall is a true myth i.e. if if accurately portrays the human condition, then we need a savior. It isn't necessary for the details of the myth to be true. Adam and Eve did not literally have to exist for the myth to be true because Adam and Eve exist in each of us.

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