Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fta · 03-11-2005, 07:44 PM

Quote:

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

This is a very popular text among apologists, but has the Hebrew been correctly translated and does it actually refer to atheism?

Chris Weimer · 03-11-2005, 07:47 PM

not really, since most atheists don't positively affirm that there is no god, except foolish ones.

ichabod crane · 03-12-2005, 01:01 AM

Technically, 'en 'elohim could be translated "there are no gods"; but if it is singular in meaning (i.e. "there is no God"), then what is criticised as foolish is not atheism in general, but rather a denial of the existence of a specific deity, also known as Yahweh, the God of Israel. This is because when 'elohim is used as a singular in the OT it always refers to a specific deity, and never functions as a general term for deity. When it is used as a singular it functions virtually as a personal name; but when it is used as a plural it just means "gods".

Since the singular meaning here is more likely (the Psalmist would be unlikely to be bothered by people denying the existence of other deities, but only by those who deny the God of Israel), the verse really has nothing to do with atheism. Rather, it is concerned with people denying the existence and reality of the God of Israel. The person whom the Psalmist is mocking might well believe in other deities. Indeed, he probably does, because those the Psalmist is attacking are probably people who are worshipping foreign deities, and have forgotten about Yahweh. Hence they are fools.

To use it as a direct reference to atheism is mistaken. That's not what the author had in mind.

Toto · 03-12-2005, 01:21 AM

I have read that the passage should be interpreted to read that the fool says in his heart, because the priests are corrupt, there is no god. I.e, the corruption of the priesthood is not a good reason for disbelief.

ichabod crane · 03-12-2005, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I have read that the passage should be interpreted to read that the fool says in his heart, because the priests are corrupt, there is no god. I.e, the corruption of the priesthood is not a good reason for disbelief.

Since there are no quotation marks in ancient Hebrew texts, you could take the quote as extending to the end of the verse, in which case you would get a meaning something like this. But I think the complaint would be about the people of Israel in general, not just the priests, since they are not specifically mentioned - so someone is saying "because the people of Israel are all corrupt, and none of them do good, then there must be no God".

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03-11-2005, 07:47 PM	#2
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	not really, since most atheists don't positively affirm that there is no god, except foolish ones.

03-12-2005, 01:01 AM	#3
ichabod crane Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 262	Technically, 'en 'elohim could be translated "there are no gods"; but if it is singular in meaning (i.e. "there is no God"), then what is criticised as foolish is not atheism in general, but rather a denial of the existence of a specific deity, also known as Yahweh, the God of Israel. This is because when 'elohim is used as a singular in the OT it always refers to a specific deity, and never functions as a general term for deity. When it is used as a singular it functions virtually as a personal name; but when it is used as a plural it just means "gods". Since the singular meaning here is more likely (the Psalmist would be unlikely to be bothered by people denying the existence of other deities, but only by those who deny the God of Israel), the verse really has nothing to do with atheism. Rather, it is concerned with people denying the existence and reality of the God of Israel. The person whom the Psalmist is mocking might well believe in other deities. Indeed, he probably does, because those the Psalmist is attacking are probably people who are worshipping foreign deities, and have forgotten about Yahweh. Hence they are fools. To use it as a direct reference to atheism is mistaken. That's not what the author had in mind.

03-12-2005, 01:21 AM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I have read that the passage should be interpreted to read that the fool says in his heart, because the priests are corrupt, there is no god. I.e, the corruption of the priesthood is not a good reason for disbelief.

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