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Old 09-28-2011, 09:58 AM   #1
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Default Interpolations in Irenaeus's Against Heresies

I am sure that few people will find any of this very interesting but I have been compiling a list of references to the heretical version of the Epistle to the Romans from the Patristic writers and I stumbled upon what I considered to be an interesting phenomenon. Over the course of compiling the list, the question inevitably arises - did the Church Fathers have accurate information about what was in the canon of writings of their rivals? There is a sense in Tertullian's Against Marcion for instance, that Tertullian (or his source) indeed does have such knowledge. He will say at certain points in his argument 'this was erased' or something to that effect. But what about Irenaeus? Does Irenaeus know what is in the writings of the Marcionites, Valentinians etc.

As I was doing my research I think there is some evidence that he knows what parts of the Catholic NT were deemed 'objectionable' by his opponents. I think he also knows what words and sayings were shared or at least generally similar with the texts of his opponents. I think further more that he tries his best to use material that was held in common to make the case that their interpretation of that material was wrong or objectionable. In short, I do think he tries to stay away from material which only appeared in the Catholic canon knowing that such arguments would fall on deaf ears.

This isn't to say that Irenaeus doesn't cite material that was rejected as spurious by the heretics. I think he does so in large clusters, perhaps even representing later additions to the original argument. Let me give the readers an example from Against Heresies Book Three:

Quote:
But there are some who say that Jesus was merely a receptacle of Christ, upon whom the Christ, as a dove, descended from above, and that when He had declared the unnameable Father He entered into the Pleroma in an incomprehensible and invisible manner: for that He was not comprehended, not only by men, but not even by those powers and virtues which are in heaven, and that Jesus was the Son, but that Christ was the Father, and the Father of Christ, God; while others say that He merely suffered in outward appearance, being naturally impassible. The Valentinians, again, maintain that the dispensational Jesus was the same who passed through Mary, upon whom that Saviour from the more exalted [region] descended, who was also termed Pan, because He possessed the names (vocabula) of all those who had produced Him; but that [this latter] shared with Him, the dispensational one, His power and His name; so that by His means death was abolished, but the Father was made known by that Saviour who had descended from above, whom they do also allege to be Himself the receptacle of Christ and of the entire Pleroma; confessing, indeed, in tongue one Christ Jesus, but being divided in [actual] opinion: for, as I have already observed, it is the practice of these men to say that there was one Christ, who was produced by Monogenes, for the confirmation of the Pleroma; but that another, the Saviour, was sent [forth] for the glorification of the Father; and yet another, the dispensational one, and whom they represent as having suffered, who also bore [in himself] Christ, that Saviour who returned into the Pleroma. I judge it necessary therefore to take into account the entire mind of the apostles regarding our Lord Jesus Christ, and to show that not only did they never hold any such opinions regarding Him; but, still further, that they announced through the Holy Spirit, that those who should teach such doctrines were agents of Satan, sent forth for the purpose of overturning the faith of some, and drawing them away from life.

That John knew the one and the same Word of God, and that He was the only begotten, and that He became incarnate for our salvation, Jesus Christ our Lord, I have sufficiently proved from the word of John himself.

beginning of interpolation

And Matthew, too, recognising one and the same Jesus Christ, exhibiting his generation as a man from the Virgin, even as God did promise David that He would raise up from the fruit of his body an eternal King, having made the same promise to Abraham a long time previously, says: "The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham" Then, that he might free our mind from suspicion regarding Joseph, he says: "But the birth of Christ was on this wise. When His mother was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Then, when Joseph had it in contemplation to put Mary away, since she proved with child, [Matthew tells us of] the angel of God standing by him, and saying: "Fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins. Now this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet: Behold. a virgin shall conceive, and bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which is, God with us;" clearly signifying that both the promise made to the fathers had been accomplished, that the Son of God was born of a virgin, and that He Himself was Christ the Saviour whom the prophets had foretold; not, as these men assert, that Jesus was He who was born of Mary, but that Christ was He who descended from above. Matthew might certainly have said, "Now the birth of Jesus was on this wise;" but the Holy Ghost, foreseeing the corrupters [of the truth], and guarding by anticipation against their deceit, says by Matthew, "But the birth of Christ was on this wise;" and that He is Emmanuel, lest perchance we might consider Him as a mere man: for "not by the will of the flesh nor by the will of man, but by the will of God was the Word made flesh;" and that we should not imagine that Jesus was one, and Christ another, but should know them to be one and the same. Paul, when writing to the Romans, has explained this very point: "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, predestinated unto the Gospel of God, which He had promised by His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son, who was made to Him of the seed of David according to the flesh, who was predestinated the Son of God with power through the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead of our Lord Jesus Christ." And again, writing to the Romans about Israel, he says: "Whose are the fathers, and from whom is Christ according to the flesh, who is God over all, blessed for ever." And again, in his Epistle to the Galatians, he says: "But when the fulness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption; " plainly indicating one God, who did by the prophets make promise of the Son, and one Jesus Christ our Lord, who was of the seed of David according to His birth from Mary; and that Jesus Christ was appointed the Son of God with power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead, as being the first begotten in all the creation; the Son of God being made the Son of man, that through Him we may receive the adoption,--humanity sustaining, and receiving, and embracing the Son of God. Wherefore Mark also says (= beginning of Mark): "The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets." Knowing one and the same Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was announced by the prophets, who from the fruit of David's body was Emmanuel, "'the messenger of great counsel of the Father;" through whom God caused the day-spring and the Just One to arise to the house of David, and raised up for him an horn of salvation, "and established a testimony in Jacob;" as David says when discoursing on the causes of His birth: "And He appointed a law in Israel, that another generation might know [Him,] the children which should he born from these, and they arising shall themselves declare to their children, so that they might set their hope in God, and seek after His commandments." And again, the angel said, when bringing good tidings to Mary: "He shall he great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto Him the throne of His father David;" acknowledging that He who is the Son of the Highest, the same is Himself also the Son of David. And David, knowing by the Spirit the dispensation of the advent of this Person, by which He is supreme over all the living and dead, confessed Him as Lord, sitting on the right hand of the Most High Father. (= end of Mark) But Simeon also (= beginning of Luke)--he who had received an intimation from the Holy Ghost that he should not see death, until first he had beheld Christ Jesus--taking Him, the first-begotten of the Virgin, into his hands, blessed God, and said, "Lord, now lettest Thou Thy servant depart in peace, according to Thy word: because mine eyes have seen Thy salvation, which Thou hast prepared before the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of Thy people Israel;" confessing thus, that the infant whom he was holding in his hands, Jesus, born of Mary, was Christ Himself, the Son of God, the light of all, the glory of Israel itself, and the peace and refreshing of those who had fallen asleep. For He was already despoiling men, by removing their ignorance, conferring upon them His own knowledge, and scattering abroad those who recognised Him, as Esaias says: "Call His name, Quickly spoil, Rapidly divide." Now these are the works of Christ. He therefore was Himself Christ, whom Simeon carrying [in his arms] blessed the Most High; on beholding whom the shepherds glorified God; whom John, while yet in his mother's womb, and He (Christ) in that of Mary, recognising as the Lord, saluted with leaping; whom the Magi, when they had seen, adored, and offered their gifts [to Him], as I have already stated, and prostrated themselves to the eternal King, departed by another way, not now returning by the way of the Assyrians. "For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, Father or mother, He shall receive the power of Damascus, and the spoils of Samaria, against the king of the Assyrians;" declaring, in a mysterious manner indeed, but emphatically, that the Lord did fight with a hidden hand against Amalek. For this cause, too, He suddenly removed those children belonging to the house of David, whose happy lot it was to have been born at that time, that He might send them on before into His kingdom; He, since He was Himself an infant, so arranging it that human infants should be martyrs, slain, according to the Scriptures, for the sake of Christ, who was born in Bethlehem of Judah, in the city of David. Therefore did the Lord also say to His disciples after the resurrection, "O thoughtless ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into His glory?" (= end of Luke) And again does He say to them: "These are the words which I spoke unto you while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning Me. Then opened He their understanding, that they should understand the Scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, and that repentance for the remission of sins be preached in His name among all nations." Now this is He who was born of Mary; for He says: "The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected, and crucified, and on the third day rise again."

end of interpolation

The Gospel, therefore, knew no other son of man but Him who was of Mary, who also suffered; and no Christ who flew away from Jesus before the passion; but Him who was born it knew as Jesus Christ the Son of God, and that this same suffered and rose again, as John, the disciple of the Lord, verities, saying: "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have eternal life in His name," (= end of John) --foreseeing these blasphemous systems which divide the Lord, as far as lies in their power, saying that He was formed of two different substances. For this reason also he has thus testified to us in his Epistle: "Little children, it is the last time; and as ye have heard that Antichrist doth come, now have many antichrists appeared; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they departed], that they might be made manifest that they are not of us. Know ye therefore, that every lie is from without, and is not of the truth. Who is a liar, but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist." (= 1 John)

But inasmuch as all those before mentioned, although they certainly do with their tongue confess one Jesus Christ, make fools of themselves, thinking one thing and saying another; for their hypotheses vary, as I have already shown, alleging, [as they do,] that one Being suffered and was born, and that this was Jesus; but that there was another who descended upon Him, and that this was Christ, who also ascended again; and they argue, that he who proceeded from the Demiurge, or he who was dispensational, or he who sprang from Joseph, was the Being subject to suffering; but upon the latter there descended from the invisible and ineffable [places] the former, whom they assert to be incomprehensible, invisible, and impassible: they thus wander from the truth, because their doctrine departs from Him who is truly God, being ignorant that His only-begotten Word, who is always present with the human race, united to and mingled with His own creation, according to the Father's pleasure, and who became flesh, is Himself Jesus Christ our Lord, who did also suffer for us, and rose again on our behalf, and who will come again in the glory of His Father, to raise up all flesh, and for the manifestation of salvation, and to apply the rule of just judgment to all who were made by Him. There is therefore, as I have pointed out, one God the Father, and one Christ Jesus, who came by means of the whole dispensational arrangements [connected with Him], and gathered together all things in Himself. But in every respect, too, He is man, the formation of God; and thus He took up man into Himself, the invisible becoming visible, the incomprehensible being made comprehensible, the impassible becoming capable of suffering, and the Word being made man, thus summing up all things in Himself: so that as in super-celestial, spiritual, and invisible things, the Word of God is supreme, so also in things visible and corporeal He might possess the supremacy, and, taking to Himself the pre-eminence, as well as constituting Himself Head of the Church, He might draw all things to Himself at the proper time.

With Him is nothing incomplete or out of due season, just as with the Father there is nothing incongruous. For all these things were foreknown by the Father; but the Son works them out at the proper time in perfect order and sequence. This was the reason why, when Mary was urging [Him] on to [perform] the wonderful miracle of the wine, and was desirous before the time to partake(2) of the cup of emblematic significance, the Lord, checking her untimely haste, said, "Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come"(3)--waiting for that hour which was foreknown by the Father. This is also the reason why, when men were often desirous to take Him, it is said, "No man laid hands upon Him, for the hour of His being taken was not yet come;"(4) nor the time of His passion, which had been foreknown by the Father; as also says the prophet Habakkuk, "By this Thou shalt be known when the years have drawn nigh; Thou shalt be set forth when the time comes; because my soul is disturbed by anger, Thou shalt remember Thy mercy."(5) Paul also says: "But when the fulness of time came, God sent forth His Son."(6) By which is made manifest, that all things which had been foreknown of the Father, our Lord did accomplish in their order, season, and hour, foreknown and fitting, being indeed one and the same, but rich and great. For He fulfils the bountiful and comprehensive will of His Father, inasmuch as He is Himself the Saviour of those who are saved, and the Lord of those who are under authority, and the God of all those things which have been formed, the only-begotten of the Father, Christ who was announced, and the Word of God, who became incarnate when the fulness of time had come, at which the Son of God had to become the Son of man.

8. All, therefore, are outside of the [Christian] dispensation, who, under pretext of knowledge, understand that Jesus was one, and Christ another, and the Only-begotten another, from whom again is the Word, and that the Saviour is another, whom these disciples of error allege to be a production of those who were made Aeons in a state of degeneracy. Such men are to outward appearance sheep; for they appear to be like us, by what they say in public, repeating the same words as we do; but inwardly they are wolves. Their doctrine is homicidal, conjuring up, as it does, a number of gods, and simulating many Fathers, but lowering and dividing the Son of God in many ways. These are they against whom the Lord has cautioned us beforehand; and His disciple, in his Epistle already mentioned, commands us to avoid them, when he says: "For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Take heed to them, that ye lose not what ye have wrought."(7) And again does he say in the Epistle: "Many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God; and every spirit which separates Jesus Christ is not of God, but is of antichrist."(8) These words agree with what was said in the Gospel, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." Wherefore he again exclaims in his Epistle, "Every one that believeth that Jesus is the Christ, has been born of God;"(9) knowing Jesus Christ to be one and the same, to whom the gates of heaven were opened, because of His taking upon Him flesh: who shall also come in the same flesh in which He suffered, revealing the glory of the Father.

Concurring with these statements, Paul, speaking to the Romans, declares: "Much more they who receive abundance of grace and righteousness for [eternal] life, shall reign by one, Christ Jesus ...
The material which is emboldened here is IMO a later addition. There are many reasons for my suspicion but to start off with, the order of the gospels that are cited in this section follow the 'standard' ordering of our NT canons (i.e. Matthew, Mark, Luke and then John) while a little earlier in Book Three the most important section where the fourfold gospel is first introduced by Irenaeus the order is very different - i.e. John, Luke, Matthew and then Mark.

I think this is very significant. I have noted many times that there are two different orderings of gospel in the writings of Irenaeus. There are also two different citations of the opening words of Mark in Irenaeus ('according to Isaiah' and 'according to the prophets'). There are two different versions of the same scriptural material from the OT. All signs point to a secondary redaction of Irenaeus's original argument against there heresies by a third century editor - likely in Rome - who, among other things established the correct ordering of the gospels as Matthew, Mark, Luke and then John.

If you look at the argument here, it is framed as an argument of John against there heresies. This seems authentically Irenaean presumably because he claimed Polycarp as his teacher and Polycarp in turn passed on what it was that John believed, said and did. This would have had powerful resonance among members of Polycarp's community. Yet I also want to note that all the material that is inserted in between what is an otherwise sensible and predictable argument against the Valentinians introduces material which would certainly have been rejected by the heresies. Romans chapter 9 is cited (material which was unknown to the Marcionites, Clement of Alexandria and presumably the Valentinians). The emphasis on Jesus 'really' being born from Mary, being a 'real' son of David all seems to be things they would not have had in their canon.

I can't help shake the idea that the person who introduced this material was not really engaging the heresies as Irenaeus was with his Johannine-based arguments. It represents a later addition, with the familiar Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ordering. The Pauline citation from Romans which closes the citation is authentic and all the follows tends to be material which was shared by heretics and early orthodox alike.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:10 PM   #2
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The writings attributed to Irenaeus are the flagships of FRAUD and FORGERY.

It does NOT appear to me that any HERETIC or Skeptic could have read any writings attributed to Irenaeus in the 2nd century.

The fact that Irenaeus did NOT appear to know when Jesus suffered as a bishop of the Church is most problematic.

How could Irenaeus PREACH and TEACH as a bishop for YEARS that Jesus Christ was CRUCIFIED UNDER CLAUDIUS when PILATE was governor?

How could EUSEBIUS not notice in "Church History" when he made references to the very same chapter where it is claimed Jesus Christ was abiout 50 years old.

Clement of Alexander, AFTER Irenaeus, claimed Jesus was 30 years old when he was crucified.

Justin Martyr, BEFORE Irenaeus, claimed Jesus was CRUCIFIED under TIBERIUS when Pilate was governor.

The writings attributed to Irenaeus are products, wholly or in part, of FRAUD and FORGERY.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:22 PM   #3
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At first glance many of your posts give the impression of being laid out as poetic verses. A sonnet, perhaps. Only when you read them however do you realize they sound like something written by the Incredible Hulk.
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
At first glance many of your posts give the impression of being laid out as poetic verses. A sonnet, perhaps. Only when you read them however do you realize they sound like something written by the Incredible Hulk.
Tim O'Neill equates aa's rants to that of a Dalek's. If you read his posts using a Dalek's voice, they can be fun.
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Old 09-28-2011, 02:36 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by stephan huller View Post
At first glance many of your posts give the impression of being laid out as poetic verses. A sonnet, perhaps. Only when you read them however do you realize they sound like something written by the Incredible Hulk.
Let us NOT divert from the issue at hand. The writings attributed to Irenaeus are EXTREMELY significant.

You are claiming that there appears to be FORGERIES in "Against Heresies".

Well, based on MY findings, it would appear that the writings attributed to Irenaeus are FUNDAMENTALLY FRAUDULENT.

The claim by Irenaeus that Jesus suffered when he was about fifty years old could NOT have been argued by a BISHOP of the Church in the 2nd century AGAINST Heretics when it should have been ESTABLISHED and ACKNOWLEDGED in "Against Heresies" that Jesus was BEGINNING to be about 30 years old in the 15th year in the reign of Tiberius when he was Baptized by John.

Examine the" Stromata" attributed to Clement of Alexandria
Quote:
This both the prophet spoke, and the Gospel. Accordingly, in fifteen years of Tiberius and fifteen years of Augustus; so were completed the thirty years till the time He suffered.
Examine "First Apology" 13 attributed to Justin Martyr
Quote:
....Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ......was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar....
Church writers BEFORE and AFTER Irenaeus, supposedly a Bishop, claimed Jesus was 30 years old or was crucified under TIBERIUS when Pilate was governor.

What Church did Irenaeus attend? How did he become a Bishop WITHOUT being TAUGHT that Jesus was 30 years old and died in the TIMES of Tiberius?

Who in the Roman Church TAUGHT Irenaeus that Jesus was about fifty years old when he suffered?

Eusebius WAS AWARE of "Against Heresies" 2. since he made reference to a passage where Irenaeus claimed Jesus was about 50 years old.

Examine "Church History" 3 attributed to Eusebius
Quote:
....They should be trustworthy who have maintained the orthodoxy of the Church; and such indeed were Irenæus and Clement of Alexandria.

3. The former in the second book of his work Against Heresies, writes as follows: And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan.
Examine "Against Heresies" 2.22.5 attributed Irenaeus
Quote:
........ from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information.(2) And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan.
The writings attributed to Irenaeus, wholly or in part, appear to be FRAUDULENT. Irenaeus is NOT likely to have been a Bishop of the Church and did NOT argue against HERETICS and SKEPTICS that Jesus was about 50 years old when he was crucified under Claudius when Pilate was governor.

In the 2nd century it was ESTABLISHED that Jesus was CRUCIFIED under TIBERIUS based on Justin Martyr and Clement of Alexandria.
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Old 09-29-2011, 03:20 AM   #6
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Default early third century writers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by stephan huller
snip
did the Church Fathers have accurate information about what was in the canon of writings of their rivals?
snip
I have noted many times that there are two different orderings of gospel in the writings of Irenaeus. There are also two different citations of the opening words of Mark in Irenaeus ('according to Isaiah' and 'according to the prophets'). There are two different versions of the same scriptural material from the OT. All signs point to a secondary redaction of Irenaeus's original argument against there heresies by a third century editor - likely in Rome - who, among other things established the correct ordering of the gospels as Matthew, Mark, Luke and then John.
snip
I can't help shake the idea that the person who introduced this material was not really engaging the heresies as Irenaeus was with his Johannine-based arguments. It represents a later addition, with the familiar Matthew, Mark, Luke and John ordering. The Pauline citation from Romans which closes the citation is authentic and all the follows tends to be material which was shared by heretics and early orthodox alike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aa5874
You are claiming that there appears to be FORGERIES in "Against Heresies".

Well, based on MY findings, it would appear that the writings attributed to Irenaeus are FUNDAMENTALLY FRAUDULENT.
What was the reaction to the late second century author, Irenaeus', writings, by early third century patristic fathers?

Hippolytus

Clement of Alexandria

Origen of Alexandria

Tertullian

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Old 09-29-2011, 07:36 AM   #7
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Obedience. Reverence. Awe.
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Old 09-29-2011, 09:11 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by stephan huller
Obedience. Reverence. Awe.
Thanks. Do you have a link or two or three or four?


Obedience:

Reverence:

Awe:


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