BlakeEM

Believing that something like this is good would take a very warped mind indeed. I’m wondering if Christians even think about what they believe at all.

Here’s a hypothetical. Put your self in gods place. This seems to be the basis of the belief in Christianity.


Let’s say you did something great for someone and helped them without them knowing. You leave them a note with what you did and how to contact you and in the note you tell them to contact and tank you. You never hear from this person, no thanks no nothing. The only reason you left the note is so they can contact you and thank you (and possibly give you money, you need money).

So being the good generous person you are you have someone kidnap them, and then give them every STD known to man, mutilate them, and break every bone in there body. Then you find a way to make them immortal, so they will suffer forever. If only the person would have said thank you for the great gift you have given them!


Now, going by the bible god must knowingly have people sent to hell or at least allows them to be sent there. These are basically the same thing, because being all powerful he can get rid of hell forever with nothing more than a thought. Because of this, god must want hell to be there, there for allowing people to be tortured for eternity yada yada...

So forgiving and loving, is god not?

“For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son; that whosoever believes in Him should not perish (in hell) but have everlasting life (in Heaven). -- John 3:16.�


Possibly one of the most quoted verses in the bible. Let me change the words around a bit.

“For god so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son; that whoever doesn’t believe in him should perish in hell and be denied everlasting life in heaven.�

This is saying exactly the same thing.

I find it very funny that he sends his son to be sacrificed to himself so he will allow people to get a choice to worship him so he won’t send them to get tortured for all eternity. But this is only if you thank him for sending his son to a horrible death. If you don’t think him for this you burn forever.

Some say that Jesus is god. So god send himself to be sacrificed to himself, well it pretty much falls apart there.

Let us say god sent Jesus to earth to teach people what they have to believe to not go to hell. There are many quotes in the bible against this, but it’s the only left alternative. This however doesn’t work because we are all doomed to go to hell anyway because Jesus has not yet died for our sins. The only way god could have sent Jesus to earth to save us from hell is to send him to die, because there is nothing else Jesus could have done to relieve us all of our sin. If there was another way to get to heaven without Jesus dieing, then there was no need for Jesus to die.


Oh well, this is just me rambling. I’m sure this is all full of mistakes and some might not make any sense.

If there are any Christians/believers here by chance I’d like them to try to explain how this is moral. I’d also like to know how god sending Jesus to die for our sins makes any sense at all. That’s like a mother with a bunch of children kills one of her kids. She then beats her kids that don’t thank her kid for dieing (that or thank her for killing her kid), and gives ice-cream to the ones that do.

That’s some sick shit. I’m not going to go into any other parts of the bible because I’d be typing this all night haha.

inquisitive01

I certainly don't understand your reasoning but, just as one example, here's John 3:16 in full:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


For one, the word perish is defined as follows:

Perish - 1. To be destroyed, ruined, or wiped out. 2. To die (esp. an untimely or violent death).

Note that it does NOT mean to suffer for eternity.

The word "hell" (Hades) is translated from the Hebrew word Sheol, which means "the grave" ("it is dark," "in the center of the Earth," etc.), and it considered to be an intermediate state between death and resurrection (for judgement).

The lake of fire, called Gehenna, is the place/site of future punishment (not eternal punishing), or the Second Death, as it is called. Those who choose not to believe in Christ (as the Son of God), not to accept Him as their Savior, not to repent (ask forgiveness of past sins and sin no more... which could require one or more honest repentances again BEFORE dying), AND not to follow His teachings are said (in the Bible) to one day be resurrected and called to judgement.

Those who have not done these things are said (again, in the Bible) to ultimately "have their part in the lake of fire (Gehenna)," which is the Second Death... the final punishment, from which one will not be resurrected again from, so it would be an eternal punishment (a noun)... rather than eternal punishing (a verb). Therefore, rather than receiving the gift of eternal life, those not saved are denied this gift of eternal life and perish (die) a second, final time.

Dean Anderson

Are you a 7th Day Adventist, by any chance?

Your view of hell corresponds to their doctrine. It is by far a minority view - the vast majority of Christians believing in the eternal torture version of hell, even if they use the euphemism of 'eternal seperation from God' - but it has more Biblical support than the mainstream Christian belief.

BlakeEM

well I got the quote here

http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-14633.html

As you can see, they have the word hell and heaven put in there, so I just left them.

It's by far the more popular belief that this means you get sent to hell. Every site I looked up referred to this as you getting sent to hell. Every Christian I ever talked to has told me that I'm going to hell to suffer forever yada yada.

BlakeEM

some quotes that support what I said...

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.



Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[ 9:43 Some manuscripts out, 44 where / " 'their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.']
(Whole Chapter: Mark 9 In context: Mark 9:42-44)



Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[ 9:45 Some manuscripts hell, 46 where / " 'their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.']
(Whole Chapter: Mark 9 In context: Mark 9:44-46)


Luke 12:5
But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[ 2:4 Greek Tartarus] putting them into gloomy dungeons[ 2:4 Some manuscripts into chains of darkness] to be held for judgment;
(Whole Chapter: 2 Peter 2 In context: 2 Peter 2:3-5)







So what is it? chains and darkness and gloom? Or burning fires? What ever it is, it seems it's not at all good seeing as he says it's better to dismember your self then go there.

My boss is Catholic, he told me hell is simply a place without the presence of god. It doesn't say anything about this anywhere in the bible that I have seen however.

Dean Anderson

To my knowledge, there are four different Christian views of hell. I am listing them here in approximately descending order of popularity.

1) Hell is everlasting torture by fire. This is the 'traditional' view of hell that most Christians have - although it owes more to Dante than it does to the Bible.

2) Hell is everlasting 'separation from God'. There is no Biblical support for this view whatsoever - it is merely a wishful-thinking view held by Christians who are uncomfortable with the idea of eternal torture.

3) Hell does not exist, and the references to it in the Bible are put there by Satan do make people see God in a morally dubious light. This is believed by Jehovah's Witnesses.

4) Hell is where destruction and 'final' death of the soul happens. This is believed by the 7th Day Adventists, and has the most Biblical support.


The quotes that you gave all support people being thrown into hell - and claim that hell contains an everlasting fire. However, the Bible nowhere claims that people will be eternally tortured in the fire. Instead it claims that people will be destroyed in the eternal fire.

inquisitive01

The following shows that even Christ was in "hell" before the Resurrection:

Acts 2:22-31

22***Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23***Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24***Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25***For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26***Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27***Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28***Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29***Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30***Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31***He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.


Ephesians 4:7-10

7***But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8***Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9***(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10***He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

However, as you can see, the Verses from Acts are more forthcoming regarding this than those from Ephesians.

As for the word torments (a noun - i.e., "in great torments"), this refers to the great mental anguish of one who has realized that he/she will not be receiving the gift of eternal life on the day of judgement (he/she will "have his/her PART in the lake of fire," and will simply die the Second Death in this lake of fire, also called Gehenna).

P.S.: I'm hardly even familiar with what a 7th-Day Adventist (or, however that was spelled) is, nor am I familiar with their beliefs. As stated before, I am a nondenominational Christian.

Kosh

Actually, I seem to recall that one of these (Gehenna?) was actually a reference to the burning garbage heap outside of town where bodies where thrown. It's just the modern interpretations that have turned it otherwise for their own agenda.

Can't look it up right now, already on the second glass of non-sacremental wine on a Friday night....

inquisitive01

I agree... looking it up while intoxicated can potentially lead to one not caring about, or even not interpreting correctly, what one is looking up. Not to mention that it could potentially lead to the confusion of others. Hasn't ever happened before, huh, even with someone who is not intoxicated.

Pyrrho

This one is mentioned above, but is worth seeing together. The words of Jesus in Mark 9:

Note, "their worm dieth not". Whatever that means, it is strongly suggestive that things can last forever in hell.

The words of Jesus in Luke 16:

Evidently, one can carry on a conversation while being burned, so it is obviously not a quick death.


Revelation 14:

Revelation 20:
I'd say the traditional view of eternal torment has some foundation to it, even if it is in a book that reads as though the author were partaking of some serious hallucinogens. Clearly God is not above causing eternal torment, at least for "the beast and the false prophet".

(Mind you, I am not saying that all these passages say that people will be tortured eternally, though it is an idea consistent with these passages. Additionally, I am not saying that the Bible may not contradict these ideas in other places. Indeed, I would not be surprised if the Bible said elsewhere that "the beast and the false prophet" will be destroyed, despite the claim in Revelation 20.)

Edited to add:

I was just a little too quick to post this; here is an explicit statement from Jesus himself that there will be "everlasting punishment" (notice the last verse of the chapter) in Matthew 25: