Duvduv

I happened to notice that the brief interaction in Luke 3 involvinng the tax collector would seem to have no particular significance to the story in which it takes place. Maybe I am missing something. The idea of a story involving the Baptist as the "Teacher" seems out of place, and therefore suggests that stories like this involving Jesus may be interchangeable with the Baptist or other teachers.

However, the statement that the tax collector should be satisfied with his income reminds me of the statement in Ethics of the Fathers (Pirkei Avot): Who is Rich? He who is happy with his portion.

Now, in GJohn 3:24 I noticed what is obviously an interpolation about the Baptist being in prison. It seems strange since GJohn doesn't discuss the imprisonment of the Baptist at all, and verse 24 seems to assume that the reader already knows about the imprisonment from somewhere and that it itself is rather unimportant. And if this brief verse could be interpolated unnecessarily, why couldn't the author(s) of GJohn interpolate the name of the mother of Jesus, Mary at least once?

Solo

But the point is that John is part of the story; it's like speculating how to interpret Hamlet without the ghost of Hamlet's father.

I think it is as clear as day that the figure stands in as a forerunner of Jesus and a catalyst in Jesus' messianic self-recognition. (Mk 11:30-33) There is an important point forgotten by people (not naming any names) who naively consider the baptism argued for historically by the "criterion of embarrassment". Being baptized by John would not have been seen as embarrassing in a community recognizing Jesus one called by God after John's baptism, and take him as a guide, in trying to find their new identity after experiencing similar annunciations themselves. It evidently would have been embarrassing to a community which considered Jesus as issue of Davidic kings (even if it was from the branch which fell on hard times and had to eke out a living as village handymen), an object of worship that could not possibly be emulated by the rank and file.

Best,
Jiri

Duvduv

Hi, Jiri. My posting was addressing the context and content of what is contained in the Baptist story in relation to the prophets. Perhaps you could address that more directly. I wonder why GJohn would present the Baptist as the voice in the wilderness but not as the messenger, although later on the gospel does.
Just as we see that brief interpolated verse about him being in prison when the gospel doesn't even talk about what happened.

Duvduv

If we can go to something besides Bart Ehrman, how do we explain that in Mark Chapter 1 there is a brief update out of order about the Baptist being imprisoned, which is not explained until chapter 6. In chapter one a reader would wonder "What is he talking about? There is no mention of John being taken into custody." See:

Chapter 1:
1:14Now after John was taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God...."

Chapter 6:
17 For Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, whom he had married.

Solo

Hi Duvduv,
Ehrman's belief that the JtB must be histotical because it is "independently attested" and embarrassing to the Christian communities strikes me as naive, especially since he does not have a good sense to consider other "evidence". My take on JtB is that it is a transparent midrash on the investiture of Joshua in the OT.

I have bolded the parts which I believe are relevant for the Baptist scene...

1) "At the end of three days".... this I believe has was written into the resurrectional symbology, in the circular design of Mark.

2) "Sanctify yourself".....here it is proclaimed by Joshua himself; in Mark's rendering it passes to JtB

3)"the ark of the covenant"....allusion to the new covenant that Jesus Christ represents (2 Cr 3:6)

4) "This day I will begin to exalt you"... Mark 1:10-11

5) "Jordan" Mk 1:5

So the idea that the baptism had to be historical because it was embarrassing to the Markan community would not stand, I am sure.

Best,
Jiri

Diogenes the Cynic

Why would Josephus invent John the Baptist? It doesn't make sense to say that Josephus' JBap passage is a Christian interpolation, because it does not say anything about John announcing the Messiah or even anything apocalyptic.

Duvduv

If the phrase was one of those brief interpolations whereby the preaching of Jesus could only have begun AFTER the Baptist was arrested, it is interesting to speculate why the story of the arrest is not placed back into chapter 1. There is confusion in chapter 6 because Jesus is preaching and only thereafter do we hear what happened to the Baptist at the hands of Herod, which sounds like it should have been inserted into chapter 1.

[Chapter 1]
14 After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. 15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”
[Chapter 6]
17 For Herod himself had given orders to have John arrested, and he had him bound and put in prison. He did this because of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, whom he had married. 18 For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” 19 So Herodias nursed a grudge against John and wanted to kill him. But she was not able to, 20 because Herod feared John and protected him, knowing him to be a righteous and holy man. When Herod heard John, he was greatly puzzled[c]; yet he liked to listen to him.
21 Finally the opportune time came. On his birthday Herod gave a banquet for his high officials and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. 22 When the daughter of[d] Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests.
The king said to the girl, “Ask me for anything you want, and I’ll give it to you.” 23 And he promised her with an oath, “Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom.”
24 She went out and said to her mother, “What shall I ask for?”
“The head of John the Baptist,” she answered.
25 At once the girl hurried in to the king with the request: “I want you to give me right now the head of John the Baptist on a platter.”
26 The king was greatly distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he did not want to refuse her. 27 So he immediately sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s head. The man went, beheaded John in the prison, 28 and brought back his head on a platter. He presented it to the girl, and she gave it to her mother. 29 On hearing of this, John’s disciples came and took his body and laid it in a tomb.
[Chapter 1]
16 As Jesus walked beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 17 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 18 At once they left their nets and followed him.
19 When he had gone a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John in a boat, preparing their nets. 20 Without delay he called them, and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men and followed him.

Diogenes the Cynic

The real significance of what both Josephus and the Gospels say he was doing, by the way, was not that he was telling people the end was coming, but that he was offering remission of sins for free. He (according to the story) was standing in the river telling people on their way across the ford to Judea and the Temple that they could have their sins forgiven right there for no money and no need to sacrifice. All they had to do was confess and repent their sins, and God would forgive them just for that.

I don't think a lot of people understand that this was a new idea. That they could take the Temple out of the equation like that and just go directly to God. It was taking business away from the Temple and making it irrelevant. John the Baptist was like the Napster of 2nd Temple Judaism.

Duvduv

Now you have me wondering about something I didn't pay much attention to before. In Judaism immersion in the mikvah or living waters is for purposes of purification. Yom Kippur is for formal forgiveness of sins, and repentance in general does that too.
I am intrigued as to where the idea of remission of sins simply by immersion comes from.

outhouse

ding ding ding, we have a winner

exactly




Again, due to the roman infection in the temple and heavy taxation, this free home worship is what made John and Jesus so popular.

Had John not have been killed, good chances are he would be the modern Jesus