Freethought & Rationalism Archive

schriverja · 06-29-2011, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

<snipped for brevity>

The question was what does it take to obtain "eternal life"? The answer (suprise) was "Keep The Commandments."

Quote:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that Keep The Commandments of Elohim,....(Rev 14:12)

These are only a small portion of the verses that express the lasting permanance of The Law. "throughout your generations".
The generations of Israel are still going on, and "forever" has not ever ended.

Now simon tell me your interpretation of the NT that does not contradict these verses.

.

edit: I missed that you had posted this before, sorry ( or maybe you added the Matt 5:19 reference??)...
Don't forget this gem from the Sermon on the Mount

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 5

19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Then again, Paul, not Jesus, was the Son of God, was he not? :devil1:

Sheshbazzar · 06-29-2011, 05:22 PM

The Pauline Epistles are 'all over the map' and show unmistakable signs of the texts having been tampered with, edited, altered, intropolated, and corrupted by the corrupt Christian church of the first four centuries. And via means of 'new' and 'improved' "Versions" this doctoring and corruption of the original sense of the texts is still going on.
It's not Paul's fault that the latter church could not resist continually fucking with and adding on to his writings.

'Ol simon here is a perfect example, any word that does not suit his particular 'theology' is ripe for his [reinterpretation to force it to conform to his personal opinions.
Just doing what generations of X-ians have always done.

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Simon, it occurs to me that you have presented a couple of hypotheses in this thread. One, that that the Bible has basic Logical Consistency (posted here). The second one, that the Bible is unified (posted here).

The interesting thing is that it seems that you haven't looked for passages that would falsify these two assertions. It seems you've only looked for passages that would confirm them.

When I (and many others) have presented passages that would directly challenge these two hypotheses, you have done a lot of energetic down-playing of those examples. But have you actually considered the objections? Have you acknowledged and challenged your own assumptions*?

That's what examining the proposed contradictions is.

Are you saying I have not shown in terms of the whole Bible that they are false contradictions?

Quote:

*anticipating pointing the same accusation back at me, I acknowledge that at one time I did believe that the Bible was basically unified and logically coherent. I was a very dedicated, baptized evangelical who spent hours each week in personal and group Bible study. Once I realized that I didn't apply the same sort of rigorous scrutiny towards my faith (at that time) as I did in my job (as a development engineer) or towards other belief systems, I realized that I had been succumbing to confirmation bias in a big way without even realizing it.

I hear you.

But my faith is not based on standards by which other faiths would be overcome under rigorous scrutiny.
Nor is it based on there being no immaterial errors in the Biblical texts (in terms of its doctrines).
My faith is based on the internal witness of the Holy Spirit, which gives Scripture to evidence itself to me
as God-breathed.

While the basis of my participation in this form is given here.

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an EVERLASTING Covenant. (Gen 17:13)

Quote:

Exd 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and you shall keep it a feast to YHWH throughout your generations; you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance FOREVER.

Quote:

And you shall observe The Feast of Unleavened Bread; for in this selfsame day have I brought your armies out of the land of Egypt: therefore you shall observe this day in your generations by an ordinance FOREVER. (Ex 12:17)

Quote:

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily My Sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am Yahweh that doth sanctify you (Ex 13:31)

Quote:

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep The Sabbath, to observe The Sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.
(Ex 31:16)

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It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel FOREVER: for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, and on The Seventh Day, He rested, and was refreshed. (Ex 31:17)

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And this shall be a statute FOREVER unto you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: (Lev 16:29)

Quote:

It shall be a Sabbath of Rest unto you, and you shall afflict your souls, by a statute FOREVER. (Lev 16:31)

Quote:

And you shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that you have brought an offering unto your Elohim: it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Lev 23:14)

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And you shall proclaim on the selfsame day, [b]that it may be an holy convocation unto you: you shall do no servile work therein: it shall be a statute FOREVER in all your dwellings throughout your generations. (Lev 23:21)

Quote:

You shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Lev 23:31)

Quote:

And ye shall keep it a Feast unto Yahweh seven days in the year. It shall be a statute FOREVER in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month. (Lev 23:41)

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The Law of Yahweh is perfect, converting the soul: (Psa 19:7)

Quote:

The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; The Commandment of Yahweh is pure, enlightening the eyes; (Psa 19:8)

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For the Commandment is a lamp; and The Law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life: (Pro 6:23)

Quote:

Keep The Commandments and keep your life; despising them leads to death. (Pro 19:16)

Quote:

Remember The Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments. (Mal 4:4)

Quote:

Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

.. If thou wilt enter into life, Keep The Commandments. (Matt 19:16-17)

The question was what does it take to obtain "eternal life"? The answer (suprise) was "Keep The Commandments."

Quote:

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which Keep The Commandments of Elohim, (Rev 12:17)

Quote:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that Keep The Commandments of Elohim,....(Rev 14:12)

These are only a small portion of the verses that express the lasting permanance of The Law. "throughout your generations".
The generations of Israel are still going on, and "forever" has not ever ended.

Now simon tell me your interpretation of the NT that does not contradict these verses.

You've left out later OT Scriptures that bear on the everlasting covenant, such as Jer 31:31:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will made a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals, among other things,
the new covenant of Jer 31:31 (Heb 8:7-8),
the obsolence of the old covenant (Heb 8:13),
the abolishment of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11-12, 17-19), and
the abolishment of the Levitical laws whose basis it was (Heb 7:11-12).

The NT letter to the Hebrews is no more a "contradiction" of the OT than
the old sign, which points to a temporary bridge while a new and better bridge is being built, and which sign is removed, is a "contradiction" to
the new sign, which points to the completed new and better bridge, which sign replaces the old one.

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

for example, does the NT doctrine of hell, which reveals there is no annihilation of the spirit, show the Biblical "contradiction" between hell and annihilation to be false?

There is no such NT 'doctrine' of hell within The NT.

This so called 'doctrine' is the theological invention of a sick minded, superstitious religion.

The NT reports the doctrine comes from Jesus.

See Mt 13:40-42, 49-50, 18:8, 25:41,46; Mk 9:43-48.

Note the consistency with the parables, etc. in:

Mt 3:10,12, 5:22, 29-30, 7:19, 8:12, 13:29-30; 22:13, 23:15,33, 24:50-51, 25:29-30;

Lk 12:4-5, 13:27-28, 16:23-25,28; Jn 15:6; 2Th 1:8.

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

<snipped for brevity>

The question was what does it take to obtain "eternal life"? The answer (suprise) was "Keep The Commandments."

Quote:

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that Keep The Commandments of Elohim,....(Rev 14:12)

These are only a small portion of the verses that express the lasting permanance of The Law. "throughout your generations".
The generations of Israel are still going on, and "forever" has not ever ended.

Now simon tell me your interpretation of the NT that does not contradict these verses.

.

edit: I missed that you had posted this before, sorry ( or maybe you added the Matt 5:19 reference??)...
Don't forget this gem from the Sermon on the Mount

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt 5

19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Then again, Paul, not Jesus, was the Son of God, was he not? :devil1:

Then again, Jesus said (Mt 5:18) they would disappear when they were accomplished.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals their accomplishment in Jesus.

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The Pauline Epistles are 'all over the map' and show unmistakable signs of the texts having been tampered with, edited, altered, intropolated, and corrupted by the corrupt Christian church of the first four centuries. And via means of 'new' and 'improved' "Versions" this doctoring and corruption of the original sense of the texts is still going on.
It's not Paul's fault that the latter church could not resist continually fucking with and adding on to his writings.

'Ol simon here is a perfect example, any word that does not suit his particular 'theology' is ripe for his [reinterpretation to force it to conform to his personal opinions.

The texts are there for you to examine whether I have represented them correctly in the context of the whole Bible.

Each gets to decide for himself.

Quote:

Just doing what generations of X-ians have always done.

schriverja · 06-30-2011, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

edit: I missed that you had posted this before, sorry ( or maybe you added the Matt 5:19 reference??)...
Don't forget this gem from the Sermon on the Mount

Then again, Paul, not Jesus, was the Son of God, was he not? :devil1:

Then again, Jesus said (Mt 5:18) they would disappear when they were accomplished.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals their accomplishment in Jesus.

Quote:

18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18 NAS)

So heaven and earth passed away? I missed it.

schriverja · 06-30-2011, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar

The question was what does it take to obtain "eternal life"? The answer (suprise) was "Keep The Commandments."

These are only a small portion of the verses that express the lasting permanance of The Law. "throughout your generations".
The generations of Israel are still going on, and "forever" has not ever ended.

Now simon tell me your interpretation of the NT that does not contradict these verses.

You've left out later OT Scriptures that bear on the everlasting covenant, such as Jer 31:31:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will made a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals, among other things,
the new covenant of Jer 31:31 (Heb 8:7-8),
the obsolence of the old covenant (Heb 8:13),
the abolishment of the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11-12, 17-19), and
the abolishment of the Levitical laws whose basis it was (Heb 7:11-12).

The NT letter to the Hebrews is no more a "contradiction" of the OT than
the old sign, which points to a temporary bridge while a new and better bridge is being built, and which sign is removed, is a "contradiction" to
the new sign, which points to the completed new and better bridge, which sign replaces the old one.

You are highlighting my point exactly. Later texts contradicting earlier texts. The theology evolving, if you will...

simon kole · 06-30-2011, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon kole

Quote:

Originally Posted by schriverja

edit: I missed that you had posted this before, sorry ( or maybe you added the Matt 5:19 reference??)...
Don't forget this gem from the Sermon on the Mount

Then again, Paul, not Jesus, was the Son of God, was he not? :devil1:

Then again, Jesus said (Mt 5:18) they would disappear when they were accomplished.

The NT letter to the Hebrews reveals their accomplishment in Jesus.

Quote:

18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (Matt 5:18 NAS)

So heaven and earth passed away? I missed it.

Time frame: to the end of time.

During time frame: the law will remain until it is accomplished.

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06-29-2011, 05:22 PM	#282
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The Pauline Epistles are 'all over the map' and show unmistakable signs of the texts having been tampered with, edited, altered, intropolated, and corrupted by the corrupt Christian church of the first four centuries. And via means of 'new' and 'improved' "Versions" this doctoring and corruption of the original sense of the texts is still going on. It's not Paul's fault that the latter church could not resist continually fucking with and adding on to his writings. 'Ol simon here is a perfect example, any word that does not suit his particular 'theology' is ripe for his [reinterpretation to force it to conform to his personal opinions. Just doing what generations of X-ians have always done.

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