Ben C Smith

On a burgeoning thread about Mark and the disciples, Joe Wallack has set forth the following statements:

I understand Joe to be primarily referring to miracles and such when he writes of the impossible (he is free to correct me if I am mistaken).

I have encountered (both on this board and elsewhere) similar sentiments regarding miracles. Sometimes these sentiments merely raise doubts as to the veracity of the one making the claim. Fair enough. But at other times such sentiments also raise doubts as to either (A) the proximity of the one making the claim to the events about which the claim is being made (as Joe is doing) or (B) the very historicity of the person about which such claims are made.

I wonder then, what one would make of the life and times of Francis of Assisi. I am not a medieval scholar, but his career has piqued my interest ever since I read the Fioretti (not at all the best source for the historical Francis, but a good read nonetheless) several years ago. Here are the facts as I am aware of them:

1. Francis lived from 1182 to 1226. He founded the Fratres Minores during his lifetime.
2. Immediately after his death, brother Elias wrote the Epistola Encyclica de Transitu Sancti Francisci, a circular letter announcing the passing of Francis. He also announced in this same letter the marks of Christ, or stigmata, that Francis had experienced near the end of his earthy sojourn.
3. In 1228 Pope Gregory IX wrote the bulla entitled Mira Circa Nos. It was this writ that canonized Francis as a saint, a mere two years after his death. In this encyclical Gregory praised Francis in lofty language drawn explicitly from the Bible. Gregory explicitly attested in this encyclical to the many miracles attributed to Francis in the following words: In his generosity the omnipotent and merciful God has provided that the aforementioned servant of Christ did come and serve him worthily and commendably. Not permitting so great a light to remain hidden under a bushel, but wishing to put it on a lampstand to console those dwelling in the house of light, God declared through many brilliant miracles that his life has been acceptable to God and his memory should be honored by the Church Militant. Therefore, since the wondrous events of his glorious life are quite well known to us because of the great familiarity he had with us while we still occupied a lower rank, and since we are fully convinced by reliable witnesses of the many brilliant miracles... [here the declaration of sainthood follows].
4. Also in 1228, two years after the death of Francis, the friar Tommaso da Celano wrote the first part of his biography of Francis. He wrote the second part in 1246-1247. Tommaso (Thomas) had known Francis personally since about 1215, when he joined the order. Neither of these two lives is lacking in miracles. Tommaso even wrote a treatise on the miracles of Francis in 1252-1253.
5. In 1260-1263 Bonaventure wrote the Legenda Maior, the official biography of Francis. Again miracles are present. Bonaventure even claims to have been healed of a childhood ailment by Francis.

These men were contemporaries and even companions of Francis of Assisi, yet they boldly reported his miracles in their works about the great saint.

What I would like on this thread is responses from any who, like Joe Wallack, believe that miraculous claims have anything at all to do with either (A) dating a work containing such claims relative to the timeframe of the claims themselves or (B) arguing for or against the historicity of the one for whom such claims are made.

Ben.

Vorkosigan

That's useful information the next time I get one of those "the time frame is too short to make it up" claims.

Vorkosigan

Reena

What sorts of miracles did he perform?

Ben C Smith

According to the sources outlined above, he performed healings, saw visions, and preached to animals who saluted him and stood at attention while he preached. He also was the first (AFAICT) to experience the sacred stigmata, the wounds of Christ, on his body.

Ben.

Ben C Smith

Thanks. And there is much more than that when it comes to immediate miraculous claims in history. Augustine recorded a raft of recent miracles in his own city of Hippo in book 22 of City of God; some of those miracles he claims to have witnessed himself. Athanasius, biographer of Anthony of Egypt, knew him personally, yet did not hesitate to attribute miracles to him. The legendization of Alexander of Macedon began during his own lifetime. Modern charismatic Christians attribute miracles to their own leaders, healers, and prophets.

Ben.

David B

Modern followers of Sai Baba, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Paramhansa Yogananda et al also ascribe miracles to them.

To say nothing of Uri Geller, The Fox sisters, Sylvia Browne, Benny Hinn....

But there has been no alleged miracle, to my knowledge, that has ever passsed sceptical examination.

David B

Lógos Sokratikós

The Catholic Church attempts its own sceptical investigations. As far as I know, they're honest attempts, but of course, it depends on who performs those investigations.
A debunker like James Randi (who wants others to stop believing), or believers, like the RCC (who wants others to believe) are, naturally, biased observers. Do "independent" examiners exist? Hard to tell, but I doubt it.

TheOpenMind
Skeptical of Skeptics. Oh...
My...
God...
:rolling: