Freethought & Rationalism Archive

teknoise · 08-09-2006, 09:22 AM

I'm having a discussion with a guy who claims that murdering non-believers is not in the Torah. I, obviously, disagree. I pointed out Exodus 22:20. The problem is, its actually Exodus 22:19 in the Torah, whereas its 22:20 in the Old Testament.

I also cannot find it in the 613 commandments. Its in the Torah, phrased the same way as the Old Testament's wording, and certainly looks like a commandment.

Does anyone have any idea?

dongiovanni1976x · 08-09-2006, 09:30 AM

Did the person you are arguing with try to say that Ex 20:20 is really saying that anyone who is foolish enough to worship another god is devoting him/herself to their own destruction and that there is no DIRECT commandment to kill that person for their actions...that it is their actions themselves that will set them on the path to destruction...?
I had a pastor take this stance but found it much more difficult to reconcile Deut 13:6-9...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deut 13:6-9

“If your brother or your friend secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God”

Roger Pearse · 08-09-2006, 09:48 AM

I'm wondering when someone will mention bondage in Egypt...

All the best,

Roger Pearse

gnosis92 · 08-09-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Did the person you are arguing with try to say that Ex 20:20 is really saying that anyone who is foolish enough to worship another god is devoting him/herself to their own destruction and that there is no DIRECT commandment to kill that person for their actions...that it is their actions themselves that will set them on the path to destruction...?
I had a pastor take this stance but found it much more difficult to reconcile Deut 13:6-9...

i made a post alluding to the above, to argue that christian antisemitism gets justification from the old testament. one poster called my argument absurd.

teknoise · 08-09-2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dongiovanni1976x

Did the person you are arguing with try to say that Ex 20:20 is really saying that anyone who is foolish enough to worship another god is devoting him/herself to their own destruction and that there is no DIRECT commandment to kill that person for their actions...that it is their actions themselves that will set them on the path to destruction...?
I had a pastor take this stance but found it much more difficult to reconcile Deut 13:6-9...

I can see how Ex 22:20 could be rationalized like that, but the rationalization, like most of them, is pretty poor. In the context of the chapter it certainly looks like a rule, not a comment about going on a path of destruction.

Deut 13:6-9 is good. Its straightforward and lays it down in plain language. But, like Ex 22:20 I can't find it in the 613 commandments as well.

Anat · 08-09-2006, 10:33 AM

See list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). Here is the introduction to that page:

Quote:

Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own.

For each mitzvah, I have provided a citation to the biblical passage or passages from which it is derived, based primarily on Rambam. For commandments that can be observed today, I have also provided citations to the Chafetz Chayim's Concise Book of Mitzvot (CCA refers to affirmative commandments; CCN refers to negative commandments; CCI refers to commandments that only apply in Israel). Commandments that cannot be observed today primarily relate to the Temple, its sacrifices and services (because the Temple does not exist) and criminal procedures (because the theocratic state of Israel does not exist).

The closest commandment on the list seems to be:

Quote:

2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3) (CCN8).

with no reference to actively killing the offender. However, this is based on Maimonides' 12th century compilation. The notion of there being 613 commandments, 365 negative ones (one for each day of the year) and 248 positive ones (one for each supposed 'organ' of the body, by whatever definition) is much older. I wonder if there ever was a compiled list in the days the sanhedrin still performed executions, or when there was a chance it would be doing so again in the forseeable future.

QRUEL · 08-09-2006, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

I'm wondering when someone will mention bondage in Egypt...

All the best,

Roger Pearse

I don't get it, why ?

fromdownunder · 08-09-2006, 11:18 PM

Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto ang god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed"

Since atheists and agnostincs generally do not sacrifice anything to anything, how can this possibly be interpreted as a command to kill unbelievers? So

Sorry, have I missed the point of the OP?

Norm

teknoise · 08-10-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fromdownunder

Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto ang god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed"

Since atheists and agnostincs generally do not sacrifice anything to anything, how can this possibly be interpreted as a command to kill unbelievers? So

Sorry, have I missed the point of the OP?

Norm

What I mean by non-believer is simply just a non-Christian, or in this case a non-Jew. Not neccessarily an atheist.

08-09-2006, 09:22 AM	#1
teknoise Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Winnipeg, MB, Canada Posts: 1,388	Is Exodus 22:20 One Of The 613 Commandments? I'm having a discussion with a guy who claims that murdering non-believers is not in the Torah. I, obviously, disagree. I pointed out Exodus 22:20. The problem is, its actually Exodus 22:19 in the Torah, whereas its 22:20 in the Old Testament. I also cannot find it in the 613 commandments. Its in the Torah, phrased the same way as the Old Testament's wording, and certainly looks like a commandment. Does anyone have any idea?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-09-2006, 09:48 AM	#3
Roger Pearse Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 4,370	I'm wondering when someone will mention bondage in Egypt... All the best, Roger Pearse

08-09-2006, 11:18 PM	#8
fromdownunder Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Lara, Victoria, Australia Posts: 2,780	Exodus 22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto ang god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed" Since atheists and agnostincs generally do not sacrifice anything to anything, how can this possibly be interpreted as a command to kill unbelievers? So Sorry, have I missed the point of the OP? Norm

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.