Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 01-10-2010, 12:45 AM

1 Corinthians 7
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

1 Corinthians 7
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 10
We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

1 Corinthians 11
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread...

1 Corinthians 8
...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Paul writes that there is but one Lord, but he keeps referring to the Lord of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus, who issued that commandment about divorce and spoke about the night he was betrayed.

Paul was really a very careless writer, wasn't he?

I mean , anybody could see that the Lord who sent snakes to kill people who tested him was not the Jesus who preached about divorce.

But Paul uses the same name for both, Lord, and then says there is but one Lord.

I bet he was kicking himself afterwards for making such a silly mistake.

After all, historicists can distinguish easily between the Lord Jesus who was on earth and spoke about divorce, and the Lord of Psalm 94, who knew that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

They know that Paul was referring to two different Lords, so Paul must have been making a silly mistake in saying there was but one Lord, and calling the Lord of Psalm 94 by the same title as the Lord who preached about divorce.

It is not as though Paul got his Lord who spoke about divorce from the same place that he got his Lord who said the thoughts of the wise are futile, is it?

spin · 01-10-2010, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Corinthians 7
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

1 Corinthians 7
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 10
We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

1 Corinthians 11
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: ...

As I understand the evidence, the use of "the lord" above is all non-titular and therefore refer to god.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

...The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread...

1 Corinthians 8
...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

These are titular and thus refer to Jesus. I've been working on this distinction to locate interpolations when the non-titular form is used for Jesus. Think of psalm 110, "the lord says to my lord"... The first is non-titular and thus refers to god, the second is titular and refers to David here.

David Hindley has another view on the matter which regards whether "lord" has an article in Greek or not.

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

Paul writes that there is but one Lord, but he keeps referring to the Lord of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus, who issued that commandment about divorce and spoke about the night he was betrayed.

Paul was really a very careless writer, wasn't he?

I mean , anybody could see that the Lord who sent snakes to kill people who tested him was not the Jesus who preached about divorce.

But Paul uses the same name for both, Lord, and then says there is but one Lord.

I bet he was kicking himself afterwards for making such a silly mistake.

After all, historicists can distinguish easily between the Lord Jesus who was on earth and spoke about divorce, and the Lord of Psalm 94, who knew that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

They know that Paul was referring to two different Lords, so Paul must have been making a silly mistake in saying there was but one Lord, and calling the Lord of Psalm 94 by the same title as the Lord who preached about divorce.

It is not as though Paul got his Lord who spoke about divorce from the same place that he got his Lord who said the thoughts of the wise are futile, is it?

Steven Carr · 01-10-2010, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Corinthians 7
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

1 Corinthians 7
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 10
We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

1 Corinthians 11
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread...

So the first 3 uses of 'Lord' here refer to God , not Jesus?

Where does Paul refer to God as the 'Lord'?

DCHindley · 01-10-2010, 11:28 AM

Steven,

Using my handy dandy definite article test:

1 Cor 3:20 has no article, so refers to YHWH.
1 Cor 7:12 has a definite article, so refers to Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6b there is no definite article with kurios, but the subject is not Jesus Christ but masters in general, so my general rule would not apply.
1 Cor 10:9 this gets a little tricky. There is a definite article here, which usually refers to Jesus Christ. However, the author seems to be alluding to Exodus 17:2. In the Greek LXX translation kurios does not have a definite article. In Hebrew, it is YHWH. This is in a segment of text (vs 8-11) that I attribute to an interpolator, and this interpolator in other places rarely speaks of the LORD god, but almost exclusively the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:23 kurios has definite articles both times, and so refer to Jesus.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Corinthians 7 (sic) [it's 3:19-20]
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness [Job 5:13]" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile [Ps 94:11]."

1 Corinthians 7[:12]
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 8[:6b]
...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 10[:9]
We should not test the Lord [Ex 17:2], as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

1 Corinthians 11[:23]
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread...

Paul writes that there is but one Lord, but he keeps referring to the Lord of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus, who issued that commandment about divorce and spoke about the night he was betrayed.

Paul was really a very careless writer, wasn't he?

I mean , anybody could see that the Lord who sent snakes to kill people who tested him was not the Jesus who preached about divorce.

But Paul uses the same name for both, Lord, and then says there is but one Lord.

I bet he was kicking himself afterwards for making such a silly mistake.

After all, historicists can distinguish easily between the Lord Jesus who was on earth and spoke about divorce, and the Lord of Psalm 94, who knew that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

They know that Paul was referring to two different Lords, so Paul must have been making a silly mistake in saying there was but one Lord, and calling the Lord of Psalm 94 by the same title as the Lord who preached about divorce.

It is not as though Paul got his Lord who spoke about divorce from the same place that he got his Lord who said the thoughts of the wise are futile, is it?

Steven Carr · 01-10-2010, 12:06 PM

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...1&t=KJV#conc/9

This says 'Christ' was tempted.

'Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.'

Is this the correct Greek?

DCHindley · 01-10-2010, 01:50 PM

Actually, ton Christon (the Christ) is the reading in p46 (ca 200 CE) as well as D (6th) G (6th) K (10th) & Psi (8-10th century). This is the Byzantine reading and incidentally the reading adopted by NA26. The RSV favored the reading below, probably because the phrase seems to be from Exodus 17:2 (look it up), which reads Lord in the Lxx.

The reading ton kurion (the Lord) is found in Aleph (4th) B (4th) C (5th) & P (6th). It rates a "C" certitude in the UBS 2nd edition I have at home, but represents the text of the UBS 2nd edition.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...1&t=KJV#conc/9

This says 'Christ' was tempted.

'Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.'

Is this the correct Greek?

spin · 01-10-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Steven,

Using my handy dandy definite article test:

1 Cor 3:20 has no article, so refers to YHWH.
1 Cor 7:12 has a definite article, so refers to Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6b there is no definite article with kurios, but the subject is not Jesus Christ but masters in general, so my general rule would not apply.
1 Cor 10:9 this gets a little tricky. There is a definite article here, which usually refers to Jesus Christ. However, the author seems to be alluding to Exodus 17:2. In the Greek LXX translation kurios does not have a definite article. In Hebrew, it is YHWH. This is in a segment of text (vs 8-11) that I attribute to an interpolator, and this interpolator in other places rarely speaks of the LORD god, but almost exclusively the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:23 kurios has definite articles both times, and so refer to Jesus.

This logic doesn't apply to the gospels I gather, where the articled lord is used often enough for god.

spin

DCHindley · 01-10-2010, 06:10 PM

Correct, only in the Pauline letters, and it might work with 2 Peter. I have tried it without success in Hebrews, James, Jude & 1 Peter, and a bit with the speeches of Peter and Paul in Acts. My initial attempts to apply it in the Gospels did not bear any fruit. I concluded that it was due to differences in style between an original writer of Pauline letters and one or more later redactors.

Funny thing is, it works with all the Pauline letters (not Hebrews), not just the "authentic" ones. If the Christ theology is secondary as I suspect, then that turns on their heads arguments for or against authenticity that depend on Christ theology.

I have long felt the arguments based on vocabulary pretty much ignore the fact that instructional letters to defined groups and personal letters to individuals are different genres, and exist to allow scholars to dismiss what they have already determined cannot or should not be authentic on theological grounds.

Arguments for authenticity that were based on "avanced" church organization were pretty much obliterated when it was discovered that the sectarian DSS documents (1st-2nd century BCE) speak of overseers (corresponding to episkopos "bishop") and other organizational figures and doctrines that were believed to be 2nd century CE developments in the pastorals. No wonder there are some who seek to marginalize the DSS and the sectarian community that wrote them.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Steven,

Using my handy dandy definite article test:

1 Cor 3:20 has no article, so refers to YHWH.
1 Cor 7:12 has a definite article, so refers to Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6b there is no definite article with kurios, but the subject is not Jesus Christ but masters in general, so my general rule would not apply.
1 Cor 10:9 this gets a little tricky. There is a definite article here, which usually refers to Jesus Christ. However, the author seems to be alluding to Exodus 17:2. In the Greek LXX translation kurios does not have a definite article. In Hebrew, it is YHWH. This is in a segment of text (vs 8-11) that I attribute to an interpolator, and this interpolator in other places rarely speaks of the LORD god, but almost exclusively the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:23 kurios has definite articles both times, and so refer to Jesus.

This logic doesn't apply to the gospels I gather, where the articled lord is used often enough for god.

spin

spin · 01-10-2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Correct, only in the Pauline letters, and it might work with 2 Peter. I have tried it without success in Hebrews, James, Jude & 1 Peter, and a bit with the speeches of Peter and Paul in Act. My initial atempts to apply it in the Gospels did not bear any fruit. I concluded that it was differences in style between an original writer and a later redactor.

So what makes you think that you have not merely restricted you sample too small to be relevant? Many example of the non-titular κυριος in Paul don't give away what their referent is, so your actual test sample is very small.

At the same time how would you distinguish from a writer who uses both articled and articleless forms to refer to god and an interpolator who uses the articleless form for Jesus?

spin

sschlichter · 01-11-2010, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Steven,

Using my handy dandy definite article test:

1 Cor 3:20 has no article, so refers to YHWH.
1 Cor 7:12 has a definite article, so refers to Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 8:6b there is no definite article with kurios, but the subject is not Jesus Christ but masters in general, so my general rule would not apply.
1 Cor 10:9 this gets a little tricky. There is a definite article here, which usually refers to Jesus Christ. However, the author seems to be alluding to Exodus 17:2. In the Greek LXX translation kurios does not have a definite article. In Hebrew, it is YHWH. This is in a segment of text (vs 8-11) that I attribute to an interpolator, and this interpolator in other places rarely speaks of the LORD god, but almost exclusively the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 11:23 kurios has definite articles both times, and so refer to Jesus.

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

1 Corinthians 7 (sic) [it's 3:19-20]
As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness [Job 5:13]" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile [Ps 94:11]."

1 Corinthians 7[:12]
To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her.

1 Corinthians 8[:6b]
...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 10[:9]
We should not test the Lord [Ex 17:2], as some of them did—and were killed by snakes.

1 Corinthians 11[:23]
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread...

Paul writes that there is but one Lord, but he keeps referring to the Lord of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus, who issued that commandment about divorce and spoke about the night he was betrayed.

Paul was really a very careless writer, wasn't he?

I mean , anybody could see that the Lord who sent snakes to kill people who tested him was not the Jesus who preached about divorce.

But Paul uses the same name for both, Lord, and then says there is but one Lord.

I bet he was kicking himself afterwards for making such a silly mistake.

After all, historicists can distinguish easily between the Lord Jesus who was on earth and spoke about divorce, and the Lord of Psalm 94, who knew that the thoughts of the wise are futile.

They know that Paul was referring to two different Lords, so Paul must have been making a silly mistake in saying there was but one Lord, and calling the Lord of Psalm 94 by the same title as the Lord who preached about divorce.

It is not as though Paul got his Lord who spoke about divorce from the same place that he got his Lord who said the thoughts of the wise are futile, is it?

Wouldn't this mean that Rom 10:9 is stating that Jesus is God when saying Jesus is Lord with no article?

01-10-2010, 12:45 AM	#1
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Who is the Lord? 1 Corinthians 7 As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile." 1 Corinthians 7 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 1 Corinthians 10 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 1 Corinthians 11 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread... 1 Corinthians 8 ...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Paul writes that there is but one Lord, but he keeps referring to the Lord of the Old Testament, and the Lord Jesus, who issued that commandment about divorce and spoke about the night he was betrayed. Paul was really a very careless writer, wasn't he? I mean , anybody could see that the Lord who sent snakes to kill people who tested him was not the Jesus who preached about divorce. But Paul uses the same name for both, Lord, and then says there is but one Lord. I bet he was kicking himself afterwards for making such a silly mistake. After all, historicists can distinguish easily between the Lord Jesus who was on earth and spoke about divorce, and the Lord of Psalm 94, who knew that the thoughts of the wise are futile. They know that Paul was referring to two different Lords, so Paul must have been making a silly mistake in saying there was but one Lord, and calling the Lord of Psalm 94 by the same title as the Lord who preached about divorce. It is not as though Paul got his Lord who spoke about divorce from the same place that he got his Lord who said the thoughts of the wise are futile, is it?

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01-10-2010, 12:06 PM	#5
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...1&t=KJV#conc/9 This says 'Christ' was tempted. 'Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.' Is this the correct Greek?

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