aa5874

You have failed to provide any relevant information to support your claim that authors of the NT were bickering and posturing.

James, the so-called brother of the Lord died around 62 CE according to some sources, yet some scholars claim the epistle of James was written from around 70-132 CE. This may indicate we have forged texts and a case of propaganda rather than posturing or bickering.

Jeffrey Gibson

So ... you don't see that what we find being said in chapter 2 of the NT writing known (correctly or not) as The Epistle of James contains a critique of, and challenge to, let alone a prima facie contradiction of, the view of the relation between faith and works that we find in chapter 3 of the NT writing known as The Epistle to the Romans? Is that correct?

In any case, if we are going to speak of failures to do things, let's note that you have failed to provide any reason why we should accept your claim about the historical worthlessness of sources that are "apologetic" in nature or why it is that professional historians don't accept your view.

Jeffrey

spamandham

I don't see a point in presenting it, if you will simply ignore it and re-iterate that we don't know who the authors are.

ggazoo

Going through this thread, I've noticed that many believe that say that the the gospels can't be trusted; that's it's all "fiction". If you feel this way, then you need to look at just how the texts were written. They are far too detailed for first century writing. For example, if you look at certain texts, you see descriptions like "Jesus wrote in the sand", and "Peter was 100 yards from the beach". First century fiction writers simply did not include these detailed descriptions in their narratives unless they were recording an eye-witness account... which is exactly what Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were doing.

It's literary history in how fiction writers of the first century wrote their stories. Details of what each character did were left out unless they promoted character development or drove the plot. That's why if you read Beowulf or The Illiad, you don't see the characters noticing the rain, falling asleep with a sigh... early fiction writers simply did not include that in their narratives.

aa5874

My position is not linked in any to anyone's acceptance. My position is subject to change without anyone's acceptance. I am not obliged or forced to accept anyone's position at any time. Frankly, I can only support my position.

The author of the epistle of James is questionable, the time the epistle was written cannot be ascertained, the epistle makes no reference to any other writing, the author may have never known that his writing would be canonised, or the epistle may just be forged and produce deliberately to distort reality.

Jeffrey Gibson

How much first century writing have you read?

Umm, what??:huh: Can you provide some evidence for this? Is there any scholar of first century writing who would agree with you on this point?

Neither Beowulf (which is not Greek) nor the Iliad (one "L") are writings from the 1st century. And beyond that, one does find explicit descriptions of characters noticing very fine details of their surroundings in the Illiad (and in The Odyssey as well - see Book 4.43-45 [Telemachus and Pisistratus noticing the details of Menelaus' palace] or Book 7.82-133 [where Odysseus takes in all the wonders of Alcinous' palace and its grounds]) even when character development or driving the plot is not in view. Have you actually read the Iliad (or The Odyssey)?

So where are you getting this nonsense? It's obviously not from first hand acquaintance with ancient literature. On what source or sources do you base your claims?

Jeffrey

Jeffrey Gibson

But -- at least with respect to your position on the worthlessness for historical purposes of "apologetic sources" -- you've never done anything of the kind. You keep dodging doing so.

So what? None of these points has any bearing whatsoever on the question of whether what we find being said on the relationship between faith and works in chapter 2 of the NT writing known (correctly or not) as The Epistle of James stands in contradiction to the view of the relation between faith and works that we find being said in chapter 3 of the NT writing known as The Epistle to the Romans.

It either does or it doesn't. Which is it?

Jeffrey

aa5874

You may have never read about the Noah and the flood in Genesis. It is one of the most detailed fictitious event ever written.

But, the flood is fiction, and people were writing fiction before, during and after the 1st century.

And you may not have read about Jesus and Peter walking on sea-water, and Jesus and Peter up in the mountains with James and John bringing dead people to life and conversing with them. You may not have heard about the angel that helped Peter to escape from prison by removing the chains from his hands and feet, or Jesus, after being buried, was seen going through the clouds on his way to God's throne.

I think there were 1st century fiction writers.

But, upon reflection, you may be right. The fiction of Jesus, the twelve, and Paul probably started in the 2nd.

Please read Genesis, again and then Exodus, you will get details of fiction.

Jeffrey Gibson

Are these first century Greek writings?

Jeffrey

aa5874

I have found chapter after chapter of fiction in gMatthew. I have provided a partial list. By the way I am not certain in which century the author wrote. I think it's 2nd century.

Matthew 1.18 Fiction:

Matthew 2.9 Fiction:

Matthew 3.16-17 Fiction:

Matthew 4.5-9
Fiction:
Matthew 8.24-26 Fiction:
Matthew 8.28-32 Fiction:
Matthew 12.10-13 Fiction:
Matthew 12.22 Fiction:
Matthew 14.16-21 Fiction:
Matthew 14.25-29 Fiction:
Matthew 15.30-31 Fiction:
Matthew 17.1-3 Fiction:
Matthew 20.30-34 Fiction:
Matthew 21.18 -20 Fiction:
Matthew 27.45 Fiction:
Matthew 27.50-53 Fiction:
Matthew 28.1-2 I think that Jesus, the twelve and Paul are fiction.