CX

Just out of curiousity, are you capable of reading the French articles? In general I've found that people have considerable difficulty writing in English if it is not their native language. There have been a number of people on this forum over the years whose English was very poor, but who were nonetheless very articulate (I'm only referring to Franco-phones since that's the only other modern language I'm reasonably conversant in). That being said I think the OP would do well to perhaps present an especially compelling article for discussion along with his own comments. I'm sure one of us here who speak French would be willing to help him if he's not up to the task of translation.

Johann_Kaspar

Hi CX,

What/who is an OP?

As in any association of people, there good and less good things, also depending on one's interests. It is about ten year that I quitted the Cercle Ernest-Renan. Maybe it is time for me to make a come back. I value very much the work of Gys-Devic. I remember several articles about the fate of the manuscripts and how they came to the present time and also an article about the destruction of so many pagan temples. Any mistakes one could see or think in the mentioned articles will give me an opportunity to renew contact with him and to forward him those corrections/remarks. I am still awaiting the list of the numerous mistakes spotted by Bede. I hope that he did not state this only out of anger.

Best wishes,
Johann

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hi, Johann,

Thanks for posting these links.

Interestingly, I found on this website a theory that the Son of Man title of Jesus (Le Fils de l'Homme) was a later interpolation into the gospels!

Marcioncommentaire
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...ommentaire.htm

Marcionappendice
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...nappendice.htm

I wonder if the author might have borrowed this idea... from me? Since this is what I've proposed about 3 years ago. But perhaps he arrived to this conclusion independently... If so, then this will strengthen my theory, I'd think!

I tried to figure out what he's saying about this, and whether or not he's found some new textual evidence that I've missed, but it doesn't really seem so... His analysis seems to be largely conjectural?

Johann, do you know the author of this theory?

All the best,

Yuri.

Johann_Kaspar

Hi Yuri,

I checked quickly who was the author of the links provided:
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...ciontotal1.htm

If it is George Ory, then he has priority, for I am sure that this text was already written and published more than ten years ago.

No, sorry I do not know him. It is a long time he is writing about the origins of xianity.

Unfortunately I did not study the case you are mentioning so I am not able to bring more light into that topic (later interpolation of son of man into the gospels).

Best wishes,
Johann

PS: Here is one list maybe worth reading:
http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...et_des_tex.htm

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hmm, interesting...

Quote:

No, sorry I do not know him. It is a long time he is writing about the origins of xianity.

I wasn't able to find hardly anything about him on the Net...

Quote:

Unfortunately I did not study the case you are mentioning so I am not able to bring more light into that topic (later interpolation of son of man into the gospels).

Sure seems like we both came to the same conclusion independently. Which is I guess a good sign!

Some of our arguments are pretty similar, but I'm not using Marcion at all in making my own case. IMHO there are too many problems trying to reconstruct what Marcion actually did use for his "Evangelion".

My own case is based on a lot of textual evidence that Ory doesn't seem to be aware of.

Quote:

Best wishes, Johann PS: Here is one list maybe worth reading: http://assoc.wanadoo.fr/cercle.ernes...et_des_tex.htm

Thanks!

In general, this cercle.ernest-renan website clearly represents freethinkers. There's clearly a certain atheist and anti-Church bias represented there, and this is why Bede has lashed out at it, I'd think...

Oh well, there are thousands of websites on the Net with a pro-Church bias, but many of them also contain much valid information. And I can say the same about the cercle.ernest-renan website.

Just because an author or a website contains some bias, this doesn't make them all wrong. In fact, I don't think I know even one scholar out there without a bias of some sort... or at least it's very hard to find them.

All the best,

Yuri.

Johann_Kaspar

Yes, this kind of people are pen and paper rather than keyboard and screen. But it is the same kind of people as Loisy. I will name: Alfaric, Couchoud, Massé, Ory and even Turmel (that one with a lot of aliases because the church was trying to destroy him when he was a priest who opened his eyes and saw the contradictions of the church). And more recently Gys-Devic.

Yes, I agree with you.

Here too I am agreeing. Typical French I would say. Completely atheist and anti-church. Kind of tradition and no problem to publish such things in Europe. Puritan style is long time gone. Some specialised on different themes or religions. Mythists and historicians have no problem being in the same association. I read by Daniel Treton on of the best summary about islam.

Best Wishes,
Johann

Yuri Kuchinsky

Hi, Johann,

I think the French tradition of biblical studies is definitely more secular, especially compared to N America, where dogmatism still rules. Also, the N American population is a lot more Church going.

And German scholarship has also become very conservative, and quite dogmatic in the last few decades.

Even the Catholic scholars in France seem to be less dogmatic. I'm thinking of Boismard (who's a Catholic priest). His textual research is very open-minded. He was the leader in investigating the Magdalene Gospel, for example!

I don't agree with him on lots of things, of course, but quite often he hits it right on target!

And of course Loisy is my big mentor. Without him, I wouldn't be anywhere close to where I'm now in my thinking...

This is the only breath of fresh air in America,

JOURNAL OF HIGHER CRITICISM
http://www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/jhcbody.html

All the best,

Yuri.

Johann_Kaspar

Hi Yuri,

Thanks for the link. I have not so much time now to read it all and to get again immerged in that research. But I will do my best to catch up with where I left ten years ago. Still I can see no great breakthrough. Now I can only assure you that there is a breakthrough. I will order and read your book about the Magdalene Gospel. Should I order it at one online bookshop or does it exist another possibility?

If it is not already done, you should read beside Loisy, Couchoud and Alfaric. And Turmel.

Best Wishes,
Johann

CX

"Original post" or "original poster" i.e. the person or message that started the thread.

Yuri Kuchinsky

Seems like a good idea, Johann!

Quote:

Still I can see no great breakthrough. Now I can only assure you that there is a breakthrough. I will order and read your book about the Magdalene Gospel. Should I order it at one online bookshop or does it exist another possibility?

Well, I sure think that the Magdalene Gospel is a great breakthrough! It is the breakthrough of the century IMHO.

To order my book, you can do it either from the Amazon, or directly from myself. I've now updated my website with the particulars,

http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku/mgj.htm

Quote:

If it is not already done, you should read beside Loisy, Couchoud and Alfaric. And Turmel. Best Wishes, Johann

I've read some of these, but not enough... Loisy was of course a close associate of Turmel, and they worked together on the question of what Paul/Saul realy wrote.

All the best,

Yuri.