Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hatsoff · 05-27-2007, 08:49 PM

Cited and hosted by Peter Kirby:

2. The conceptual world and the rhetorical language are so strongly influenced by Hellenism as to rule out Peter definitely, nor could it have been written by one of his helpers or pupils under instructions from Peter. Not even at some time after the death of the apostle.

The Hellenistic concepts include: the areth of God (1:3), virtue in addition to faith (1:5); knowledge (1:2, 3, 6, 8; 2:20; 3:18); participation in the divine nature (qeias koinwnoi fusews) "in order that one might escape corruption that is present in the world because of lust" (1:4); the term epoptai comes from the language of the mysteries (1:16); placed side by side are a quotation from Proverbs and a trite saying from the Hellenistic tradition (2:22).*

--Kummel, Werner. Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 430-4 (does not span all five pages; exact page number unknown)

*-The underlined text needs to be converted to Greek characters. Anyone who knows how to do this feel free to PM me. If I don't learn in time to edit this post, perhaps a mod could do so for me.

I've got a problem, here. First of all, I'm unclear what it means to be "influenced by Hellenism," or why that would preclude a Jewish author. I'm more or less taking Kummel's word for it, because he's been correct about so many things I can actually verify. Second, how can individual words and even phrases truly speak to any particular influence? Third, what is "the language of the mysteries"? Fourth, what is the "trite saying from Hellenistic tradition" in 2Pe 2:22?

I could really use some help on this. It seems like a familiarity with Hellenistic literary forms is key when dealing with the New Testament. Any help would be much appreciated!

hatsoff · 05-29-2007, 07:23 AM

Come on, guys. I really need some help, here.

Toto · 05-29-2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hatsoff

...

I've got a problem, here. First of all, I'm unclear what it means to be "influenced by Hellenism," or why that would preclude a Jewish author.

Many Jews were influenced by Hellenism - there is an entire era referred to as Hellenistic Judaism.

Quote:

. . . Second, how can individual words and even phrases truly speak to any particular influence?

It's not so much the vocabulary, as the concepts the words represent.

Quote:

Third, what is "the language of the mysteries"?

The mysteries were the secret rites of contemporary religions. The term usually refers to the Eleusinian Mysteries, the worship of Isis, and Mithraism. Christianity suppressed all of these mystery religions, but the issue is whether they adapted elements of them.

[QUOTE]Fourth, what is the "trite saying from Hellenistic tradition" in 2 Pe 2:22?[QUOTE]

22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," [f] and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

[f] indicates that the first proverb is from Proverbs 26:11

11 As a dog returns to its vomit,
so a fool repeats his folly.

The second "proverb" is not in the Hebrew Scriptures. I haven't tracked it down, but it sounds like it could be a common saying from an agricultural community.

hatsoff · 05-30-2007, 03:59 PM

So, what then is Hellenism? Is it just a roundabout way of saying "classical Greek"? And if Jews were so often influenced by Hellenism, whatever it is, how do Hellenistic concepts in 2 Peter constitute an argument against Petrine authorship?

Toto · 05-30-2007, 04:12 PM

define: Hellenism

Quote:

Definitions of Hellenism on the Web:

A general term referring to the influence that Greek Pagan culture had on other societies in ancient times. Judaism was profoundly influenced by Hellenism after the conquest of Palestine by the Greeks in the second century BCE.
www.religioustolerance.org/gl_h.htm

Hellenism, or Hellenization, is the process by which the world adopted Greek thought, culture, and language due primarily to the conquests of Alexander the Great (356-323 BC). The Hellenistic period extends in history from the death of Alexander (323 BC) to about 30 BC when the Roman Empire annexed the last major Hellenic kingdom (Egypt) in about 30 BC. ...
www.apologetics.org/glossary.html

term used to describe the spread of Greek ("Hellenic") culture under Alexander the Great.
faculty.juniata.edu/tuten/islamic/glossary.html

Culture derived from the Greek civilization that flourished between 800 and 400 bce (p. 125)
http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bo...y/gloss_H.html

the principles and ideals associated with classical Greek civilization
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

The term Hellenistic (derived from Hellehn, Ἕλλην in Greek, the Greeks' word for themselves) was established by the German historian Johann Gustav Droysen to refer to the shift from a culture dominated by ethnic Greeks to a culture dominated by Greek-speakers of various ethnicities, and from the political dominance of the city-state to that of larger monarchies. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenism

The assumption is that Peter was an Aramaic speaking Jew, a simple fisherman.

hatsoff · 05-30-2007, 04:23 PM

I'm not sure I follow that last bit. By "simple fisherman" do you mean an uneducated peasant? If so, Hellenistic influence hardly matters since illiteracy would preclude him from writing anything at all. If not, what does being a fisherman have to do with a familiarity with Greek culture? Moreover, how can we trust any of the details of Peter's life except those very few given by Paul--and even then, the trust is tenuous--?

Forgive me if I seem a bit peeved, but I trusted both Kummel and Kirby, who seem to have let me down in this instance. The more I learn, the more this argument seems defunct.

Toto · 05-30-2007, 06:41 PM

Sorry, maybe you should get someone who believes that Peter even existed to defend this. I may not be doing it justice.

Do we know who Peter was? It seems he was a shadowy figure in the early church, and was incorporated into the gospel stories as a fisherman. The Christians who assume the truth of the gospels I think also assume that some supernatural power changed him into an articulate theologian.

If he wasn't a rude fisherman, but a Hellenistic intellectual, then it appears Kummel gives other arguments based on textual analysis that will be more convincing.

Riverwind · 05-30-2007, 06:59 PM

All of what follows is, by neccessity, pure speculation, but I believe historical probability can be found in these speculations.

There are many theories that Peter used a learned amaneuensis (or "secretary") to get his thoughts into writing.

I see no reason to doubt that this "secretary" (writing originally in Greek?) might have been very familiar with such Hellenistic concepts, words, or phrases, and perhaps even suggested their use.

Since Hellenism had been a significant influence in that area of the world for a long time, most well-educated people knew Greek "classics" as religious writings (eg. Caesar, Cicero, even Paul, etc.), and even the uneducated masses had likely been exposed to major Hellenistic concepts (and some likely to more obscure Hellenistic concepts), words, and phrases.

In short, I don't see Kummel's reasoning here as being very good, rather it seems like nit-picking, especially in only referencing single words and short phrases.

05-27-2007, 08:49 PM	#1
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Kummel on 2 Peter and Hellenistic influence Cited and hosted by Peter Kirby: 2. The conceptual world and the rhetorical language are so strongly influenced by Hellenism as to rule out Peter definitely, nor could it have been written by one of his helpers or pupils under instructions from Peter. Not even at some time after the death of the apostle. The Hellenistic concepts include: the areth of God (1:3), virtue in addition to faith (1:5); knowledge (1:2, 3, 6, 8; 2:20; 3:18); participation in the divine nature (qeias koinwnoi fusews) "in order that one might escape corruption that is present in the world because of lust" (1:4); the term epoptai comes from the language of the mysteries (1:16); placed side by side are a quotation from Proverbs and a trite saying from the Hellenistic tradition (2:22).* --Kummel, Werner. Introduction to the New Testament, pp. 430-4 (does not span all five pages; exact page number unknown) *-The underlined text needs to be converted to Greek characters. Anyone who knows how to do this feel free to PM me. If I don't learn in time to edit this post, perhaps a mod could do so for me. I've got a problem, here. First of all, I'm unclear what it means to be "influenced by Hellenism," or why that would preclude a Jewish author. I'm more or less taking Kummel's word for it, because he's been correct about so many things I can actually verify. Second, how can individual words and even phrases truly speak to any particular influence? Third, what is "the language of the mysteries"? Fourth, what is the "trite saying from Hellenistic tradition" in 2Pe 2:22? I could really use some help on this. It seems like a familiarity with Hellenistic literary forms is key when dealing with the New Testament. Any help would be much appreciated!

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-29-2007, 07:23 AM	#2
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	Come on, guys. I really need some help, here.

05-30-2007, 03:59 PM	#4
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	So, what then is Hellenism? Is it just a roundabout way of saying "classical Greek"? And if Jews were so often influenced by Hellenism, whatever it is, how do Hellenistic concepts in 2 Peter constitute an argument against Petrine authorship?

05-30-2007, 04:23 PM	#6
hatsoff Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 740	I'm not sure I follow that last bit. By "simple fisherman" do you mean an uneducated peasant? If so, Hellenistic influence hardly matters since illiteracy would preclude him from writing anything at all. If not, what does being a fisherman have to do with a familiarity with Greek culture? Moreover, how can we trust any of the details of Peter's life except those very few given by Paul--and even then, the trust is tenuous--? Forgive me if I seem a bit peeved, but I trusted both Kummel and Kirby, who seem to have let me down in this instance. The more I learn, the more this argument seems defunct.

05-30-2007, 06:41 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Sorry, maybe you should get someone who believes that Peter even existed to defend this. I may not be doing it justice. Do we know who Peter was? It seems he was a shadowy figure in the early church, and was incorporated into the gospel stories as a fisherman. The Christians who assume the truth of the gospels I think also assume that some supernatural power changed him into an articulate theologian. If he wasn't a rude fisherman, but a Hellenistic intellectual, then it appears Kummel gives other arguments based on textual analysis that will be more convincing.

05-30-2007, 06:59 PM	#8
Riverwind Banned Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Allen, Tx Posts: 604	All of what follows is, by neccessity, pure speculation, but I believe historical probability can be found in these speculations. There are many theories that Peter used a learned amaneuensis (or "secretary") to get his thoughts into writing. I see no reason to doubt that this "secretary" (writing originally in Greek?) might have been very familiar with such Hellenistic concepts, words, or phrases, and perhaps even suggested their use. Since Hellenism had been a significant influence in that area of the world for a long time, most well-educated people knew Greek "classics" as religious writings (eg. Caesar, Cicero, even Paul, etc.), and even the uneducated masses had likely been exposed to major Hellenistic concepts (and some likely to more obscure Hellenistic concepts), words, and phrases. In short, I don't see Kummel's reasoning here as being very good, rather it seems like nit-picking, especially in only referencing single words and short phrases.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.