Malachi151

This was posted in the "Why doesn't everyone who posts here agree with me" thread, but I figured I would pull i tout for further discussion.

Spin, in line with traditional scholarship, noted that one of the reasons why people think that the Gospel of Mark is based on prior narrative elements is stuff like the "duplication" of the miracle of the loaves and fishes story, which appears twice in Mark, once in Mark 6 and once in Mark 8.

Following the second telling in Mark 8 is the following:

It seems to me that this has something to do with feeding the Jews first and then the Gentiles.

First there are 12 baskets, then 7. Jesus says "Do you still not understand?" Obviously someone or some group of people are falling out of favor here.

This could be talking about 12 symbolizing the 12 tribes of Israel, whom God first nurtured, and then 7 representing Rome, as in the 7 hills of Rome, which is a very symbolic number for Rome and one that would have been well understood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_hills_of_Rome

So, my interpretation of this would be to say that God favored Israel first, the 12 tribes, and then Rome, the 7 hills.

This fits with the passion narrative where a Roman guard, not a Jew, says "Surely this man was the son of God."

If this is the case then it obviously isn't some overlooked duplication on the part of the author, it is intentional symbolism.

Thoughts on this?

Johann_Kaspar

My thoughts is that nobody understands it at all. Like "walking on the sea". It is crystal clear though.

Do you want one hint: why is he speaking of "bread" and "loaves"? It is all (well, almost all) in front of you.

Malachi151

As for walking on the sea:

I think that explains that.

Still, I think that the 12 and 7 are symbolic of Israel and Rome.

Lugubert

12 just might be possible, but is there any other case anywhere that uses 7 for Rome, and how probable is it that the number of hills would have been known to the NT writers?

Johann_Kaspar

waters != sea.

12 and 7 are Hebrew. Nothing to do with Rome. Yeshua never cared for the Romans. The fun with the gospels is that one can say anything without being disproved, and almost anything has been said. Why hesitate? The game goes on.

Malachi151

Seven was a well known number that was symbolic of Rome at the time and has remained since. As the link showed as well, the number seven is used to refer to Rome in the Book of Revelation.

A sea is body of water is it not?

Well, if the author of Mark was from Rome, as most people conclude.....

Malachi151

I should also note that in the narrative, Jesus is in his home town at first where he says that a prophet is not recognized, and the people did not recognize him. He also rejects his family.

Then he feeds the 5 thousand, with the 12 baskets.

Then they cross the water, and Jesus walks on water. It says that the heart of the disciples was hardened and they did not understand about the beard.

Then they arrive in what appears to be a Gentile town, though Jews are also there, and when they reach the shore it says that immediately the people recognized him.

Then Jesus casts out a demon from the child of a Greek woman.

Then Jesus heals a deaf man.

Then Jesus feeds the 4 thousand with 7 baskets.

Then Jesus warns them about the Pharisees, which the disciples don't understand, and then talks about 12 baskets and then 7, and "Don't you understand?"

Then he heals a blind man.

Then he rebukes Peter.

---------------------

So Jesus starts at home, rejects his family, says that he can't work among his own people, and feeds the people of his own town with 12 baskets.

Then he crosses the waters to a different place that is supposedly north, and so presumably Gentile, where he helps a Greek woman and the people recognize him, and he feeds people again, but this time with 7 baskets, and then the disciples don't get it and he recounts the number of baskets for them to draw attention to the basket count as says "Don't you get it?"

So, not only is it a matter of 12 and 7, but the 12 is in his "home town", and the 7 is in a foreign land, among "other people".

Gamera

I'm a little unclear what you're saying, Malachi.

The passage falls into the trope of the misunderstanding disciples, of which there are several examples in the gospels, the most notable being the disciples' misunderstanding of Jesus' admonition to buy swords, which he meant metaphorically and they take literally.

Similarly, in this passage, he's speaking metaphorically about the yeast of the pharisees, which he means metaphorically (the yeast of unbelief, self-righteousness, selfishness?) and they take literally in a comical way. The passage is in fact very comical, as the disciples murmur about themselves about bread when Jesus isn't talking about bread at all. They've gone off on a wierd, literal tangent.

Typically, rather than just setting them straight, he points out that bread is the least of their worries, since he can make as much bread as he wants, which point he bring home with a little Q&A.

The point of this odd comic set piece seems to be that the disciples are as dull-witted as the pharisees when it comes to recognizing the import of Jesus's person and mission.

Are you saying the passage has an additional exegetical meaning, and if so, what is the meaning of that level exactly? That the pharisees want the messiah only for the Jews, but he's come to the gentiles also?

Malachi151

You make good points Gamera, but what I am most concerned with is two points.

#1) Do both of these feeding the multitudes stories make sense and integrate well into the narrative, or are these two stories evidence that the author of Mark was just tying together pre-existing elements, and in this case there happens to be a duplication.

I know that it is a common argument, which Spin presented as well, that these two loaves and fishes stories demonstrate that the author of Mark was just throwing disconnected elements together.

The way I see it, this isn't some mindless duplication, this is an intentional and meaningful part of the narrative that was crafted by the author of Mark. These two events serve a purpose in the narrative.

#2) What purpose do these serve? Why does almost the same thing happen twice?

That's up to interpretation. What I have proposed is that the first event represents God caring for the Jews, the 12 tribes, and the second event represents God caring for Rome, the 7 hills. As with the rest of Mark, I'm sure that there are many aspects and multiple meanings, I'm just proposing this as one aspect.

I agree with what you said as well, which is the more direct meaning.