Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Knife · 11-11-2005, 06:46 PM

Below is a quote taken from a friend who has recently converted to Catholocism.

"...but, the apostles existed. that is fact (unless you discount all past history that you werent personally able to witness). the apostles died, HORRIBLY, for
their belief. and that belief was that a man named jesus, whom they knew,
who was killed by the romans, was resurrected from the dead! that was the
belief, right there! now, all these men, who knew for fact whether or not
the resurrection was a lie they made up or not, were willing to suffer
incredible tortures and die for the belief. how many men are willing to die
for something they made up?? how many men are willing to have their skin
flayed, their skin burned off, nails driven thru their bodies, FOR SOMETHING
THEY KNOW IS A LIE??? they knew this man jesus before he died, and they said they saw him after he died, and they saw him alive. subsequent martyrs,
non-witnesses, have been willing to die for this belief based on faith. but
the apostles didnt need faith. for them, since they were there, it is fact
or not. and they willingly left their homes and families to tell everyone
about it...they willingly handed over their lives for this man who was
resurrected, rather than recant and say it was a lie. one man, maybe. two
men, ok. three men, you're pushing it. but 12 men, all WITNESSES to whether
the man jesus returned from the dead or not, willing to die for saying that
jesus actually did come back to life and they saw him. how, using critical
thinking and logic, can you account for 12 men to suffer tragically and die
for something that they know they made up? they gained nothing by their
message. no power, no money, no fame. just death, plain and simple."

I would like to counter-argue her statement "the apostles existed. that is fact (unless you discount all past history that you werent personally able to witness)."

If I cant counter argue that well enough (or just to pile on more) I would like to counter-argue her next statement "the apostles died, HORRIBLY, for
their belief. and that belief was that a man named jesus, whom they knew,
who was killed by the romans, was resurrected from the dead! that was the
belief, right there! now, all these men, who knew for fact whether or not
the resurrection was a lie".

So I would like to counter-argue with as much historical basis as possible, at least for the first statement. Any help would be greatly appreciated...website, arguments of your own, etc.

Thanks.

Kosh · 11-11-2005, 07:57 PM

there is no evidence that any of the apostles died a horrible death. Not even that they died BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF. If you search the library here, there are some articles about it. It is nothing more than church "tradition".

Even if they had, you can't prove they knew it to be a lie. If they truly believed in something that was wrong (as Ignorant Bronze Age Goatherders tend to do), dying for that belief does not prove it true. Ask her if the 9/11 bombers death is proof that Islam is the right religion? They all died for what they "knew" to be true.

Of course, the real catch is that most people (including your friend) have trouble differentiating "believing something" from "knowing something".

And ask her where that 12th apostle came from, since Judas certainly wasn't one of them!

then just for fun, bait by asking if Paul was one of those apostles that witnessed the resurections and got Jesus teachings firsthand. You may be amazed at the answer.

Oh yeah, ask her for any evidence that apostles existed, since none of them wrote the Gospels...

pharoah · 11-11-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knife

they gained nothing by their
message. no power, no money, no fame. just death, plain and simple.[/I]"

Acts 4
34Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,

35And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

36And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

37Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
Acts 5
1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

A cynic might read the above passage and jump to the conclusion that Peter and company grabbed a big chunk of money from the followers by inducing them to sell everything and give it to them. Furthermore that cynic might conclude that Peter killed two people who had the audacity to keep some of their hard-earned wealth as a means of instilling fear and accumulating power. Far be it from me to think such heretical thoughts.

John A. Broussard · 11-11-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharoah

A cynic might read the above passage and jump to the conclusion that Peter and company grabbed a big chunk of money from the followers by inducing them to sell everything and give it to them.

And the cynic might just be right.

News item this week:

Pilfering pastor sells his church

A MINISTER has been arrested for allegedly selling his church and parsonage without his congregation's knowledge.

The Reverend Randy Radic was arrested yesterday on allegations he forged documents in 2002 to obtain the deed to the $US150,732 home in which he had been living rent-free while serving as pastor of First Congressional Church in Ripon, California, The Modesto Bee reported.

Joan of Bark · 11-11-2005, 09:28 PM

Kosh is correct: sincerity does not equal truth.

As for the apostles not gaining anything in death -- actually, they gained the greatest gift they could imagine: eternal life in heaven. For them, death was a net gain.

Zeichman · 11-11-2005, 11:09 PM

Neveryoumind Josephus on James' death, uncontested by almost every scholar. That is a brutal death, whether or not it was on account of belief.

Benni72 · 11-12-2005, 03:49 AM

But did James the Just belong to the Twelve? According to the Gospels, Jesus' brothers didn't believe in Him (whatever this means) in His lifetime.

Zeichman · 11-12-2005, 07:47 AM

Semantics. The issue here is martyrdom and existence of early church fathers.

Javaman · 11-12-2005, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeichman

Semantics. The issue here is martyrdom and existence of early church fathers.

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you taking the stance that there were 12 apostles after Judas' death and that they died horribly? Your posts are a bit unclear.

Chili · 11-12-2005, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Kosh is correct: sincerity does not equal truth.

As for the apostles not gaining anything in death -- actually, they gained the greatest gift they could imagine: eternal life in heaven. For them, death was a net gain.

They actually were the richess of heaven when they lost their own identity. It is to die hard if heaven is worth the effort.

11-11-2005, 06:46 PM	#1
Knife Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: USA Posts: 86	12 apostle death argument again... Below is a quote taken from a friend who has recently converted to Catholocism. "...but, the apostles existed. that is fact (unless you discount all past history that you werent personally able to witness). the apostles died, HORRIBLY, for their belief. and that belief was that a man named jesus, whom they knew, who was killed by the romans, was resurrected from the dead! that was the belief, right there! now, all these men, who knew for fact whether or not the resurrection was a lie they made up or not, were willing to suffer incredible tortures and die for the belief. how many men are willing to die for something they made up?? how many men are willing to have their skin flayed, their skin burned off, nails driven thru their bodies, FOR SOMETHING THEY KNOW IS A LIE??? they knew this man jesus before he died, and they said they saw him after he died, and they saw him alive. subsequent martyrs, non-witnesses, have been willing to die for this belief based on faith. but the apostles didnt need faith. for them, since they were there, it is fact or not. and they willingly left their homes and families to tell everyone about it...they willingly handed over their lives for this man who was resurrected, rather than recant and say it was a lie. one man, maybe. two men, ok. three men, you're pushing it. but 12 men, all WITNESSES to whether the man jesus returned from the dead or not, willing to die for saying that jesus actually did come back to life and they saw him. how, using critical thinking and logic, can you account for 12 men to suffer tragically and die for something that they know they made up? they gained nothing by their message. no power, no money, no fame. just death, plain and simple." I would like to counter-argue her statement "the apostles existed. that is fact (unless you discount all past history that you werent personally able to witness)." If I cant counter argue that well enough (or just to pile on more) I would like to counter-argue her next statement "the apostles died, HORRIBLY, for their belief. and that belief was that a man named jesus, whom they knew, who was killed by the romans, was resurrected from the dead! that was the belief, right there! now, all these men, who knew for fact whether or not the resurrection was a lie". So I would like to counter-argue with as much historical basis as possible, at least for the first statement. Any help would be greatly appreciated...website, arguments of your own, etc. Thanks.

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11-11-2005, 07:57 PM	#2
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	there is no evidence that any of the apostles died a horrible death. Not even that they died BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF. If you search the library here, there are some articles about it. It is nothing more than church "tradition". Even if they had, you can't prove they knew it to be a lie. If they truly believed in something that was wrong (as Ignorant Bronze Age Goatherders tend to do), dying for that belief does not prove it true. Ask her if the 9/11 bombers death is proof that Islam is the right religion? They all died for what they "knew" to be true. Of course, the real catch is that most people (including your friend) have trouble differentiating "believing something" from "knowing something". And ask her where that 12th apostle came from, since Judas certainly wasn't one of them! then just for fun, bait by asking if Paul was one of those apostles that witnessed the resurections and got Jesus teachings firsthand. You may be amazed at the answer. Oh yeah, ask her for any evidence that apostles existed, since none of them wrote the Gospels...

11-11-2005, 09:28 PM	#5
Joan of Bark Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Pua, in northern Thailand Posts: 2,823	Kosh is correct: sincerity does not equal truth. As for the apostles not gaining anything in death -- actually, they gained the greatest gift they could imagine: eternal life in heaven. For them, death was a net gain.

11-11-2005, 11:09 PM	#6
Zeichman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 562	Neveryoumind Josephus on James' death, uncontested by almost every scholar. That is a brutal death, whether or not it was on account of belief.

11-12-2005, 03:49 AM	#7
Benni72 Regular Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Rostock, Germany Posts: 143	But did James the Just belong to the Twelve? According to the Gospels, Jesus' brothers didn't believe in Him (whatever this means) in His lifetime.

11-12-2005, 07:47 AM	#8
Zeichman Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Posts: 562	Semantics. The issue here is martyrdom and existence of early church fathers.

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