semiopen

You have a point, but the reaction by any measure is extreme.

This is SOP for the Rabbis.

Consider the Karaites. This was originally a group of working class Jews that split from Rabbinic Judaism because of the corruption of the rabbis. They rejected the Talmud as an unbroken transmission of laws from Moses.

The Rabbis told the most outrageous lies about them, some are currently in circulation. Karaites don't wear Tefilim, but a standard lie is that they wear their head Tefilim very low, so that the box winds up between their eyes. If a rabbi sees someone wearing their Tefilim too low they will definitely make sure they correct this and will always mention Karaites.

In addition to the lies, they will also try to do people harm. For example, observant Jewish doctors are forbidden from giving a Karaite medical treatment.

What does this have to with Almah and Jesus? Rabbis will do anything in their power to dis Jesus, as I mentioned before the position about Almah is polemics, if there was a Jewish reason to interpret this as Virgin, these guys would be the first ones to say it meant Virgin.

Regarding Jesus and the messiah, they will give you little technicalities all day of why Jesus wasn't the Messiah, but continue to cling to the idiotic belief that a messiah will come. Schneerson is the final person on the messiah list and many Lubavich Chasidim believe to this day that he was the Messiah, despite him being dead, etc.

The nature of the posts here reflect an interesting but unholy alliance between Classical Judaism and skeptics. Skeptics, with no real interest in Judaism, take these biased opinions for truth, only because it supports their negative opinions (which personally I feel are justified) about Christianity.

show_no_mercy

Yeah I agree. Basically the enemy of my enemy is my friend However I haven't personally suffered because of Jewish proselytism so they are off my radar.

bacht

I dunno, when did Jews have the power of life and death over Christians? Aren't you comparing apples and oranges? How many Jews were deported, arrested, abused, or executed by European Christians? Judaism may contain some silly beliefs but that's kind of harmless compared to the various problems faced by European Jews up to and including the Nazi Holocaust :huh:

semiopen

This is a recent hobbyhorse of mine (if this isn't an oxymoron).

Keep in mind that my main point is that rabbinical polemics on the word almah and Rabbinic technical arguments against Jesus being the messiah are not trustworthy.

This is a real significant current issue with the ultra Orthodox influence in Israel. I don't think anyone would argue that the stability of the middle east isn't critical to the world.

Regarding the history of anti-semitism, I think the holocaust has to be looked at separately, so I would argue about your statement "up to and including."

Anti-semitism is a branch of Jewish Studies and one that I'm not that familiar with yet. However, common understanding of this make it seem more simple and clear cut than is the case. According to Shahak, Jews typically worked for nobility in feudal society and were generally protected by this power structure. Outbreaks of anti-semitism are almost always associated with the masses rising against feudalism. During the middle ages, the church was generally supportive of Jews.

The argument that Jews have been slapped around so much that they deserve the chance for payback (even on people who never did them harm) is obviously weak although widely held (especially in the US).

Recently I read "Jewish History, Jewish Religion The Weight of Three Thousand Years (or via: amazon.co.uk)" by Israel Shahak. He's a holocaust survivor, and writes convincingly of the issues with Classical Judaism.

Iskander

The Credo was written in the Christian heart and it said that the Jews had committed a heinous crime.

Perhaps the Church was supportive of those Jews who had been forgiven by drinking of the blood of Jesus, but as the history of the Marranos show this is not true.

This citation that follows is from the credo of St. Augustine of Hippo. It is the final version of the credo and was used to indoctrinate the faithful and teach the ignorant.


“ On the Creed
1. Receive, my children, the Rule of Faith, which is called the Creed And when ye have received it, write it in your heart, and be daily saying it to yourselves; before ye sleep, before ye go forth, arm you with your Creed. The Creed no man writes so as it may be able to be read: but for rehearsal of it, lest haply forgetfulness obliterate what care has delivered, let your memory be your record-roll: what you are about to hear, that are you to believe; and what you shall have believed, that are about to give back with your tongue.

10………………………………………… ………………………. What end of the Lord? My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me? They are the words of the Lord hanging on the cross. He did as it were leave Him for present felicity, not leave Him for eternal immortality. In this is "the end of the Lord." The Jews hold Him, the Jews insult, the Jews bind Him, crown Him with thorns, dishonor Him with spitting, scourge Him, overwhelm Him with revilings, hang Him upon the tree, pierce Him with a spear, last of all bury Him. He was as it were left: but by whom? By those insulting ones.

15. "Forgiveness of sins…….” Let none say, "I have done this or that sin: perchance that is not forgiven me." What hast thou done? How great a sin hast thou done? Name any heinous thing thou hast committed, heavy, horrible, which thou shudderest even to think of: have done what thou wilt: hast thou killed Christ? There is not than that deed any worse, because also than Christ there is nothing better. What a dreadful thing is it to kill Christ! Yet the Jews killed Him, and many afterwards believed on Him and drank His blood: they are forgiven the sin which they committed.”

Extracted from
Peter Kirby
Early Christian Writings
Companion CD, 2005
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1307.htm

semiopen

This may be an example of popular misconceptions.

As I mentioned in my message the Church was generally an important protector of the Jews.

If you wish to defend an opinion that the Credo was an important part of anti-semitism and subsequent persecution of the Jews, then some credible examples of it contributing to anti Jewish actions should be provided and examined.

bacht

I think it's fair to say that the idea of the messiah has evolved from its earliest mentions in the OT to modern times. Starting from a warrior-hero like David the idea eventually reached the stage of supernaturalism with Jesus, expanding also from Jewish nationalism to Catholic universalism and focusing on the next world rather than this one. Since then I think the Jews have generally downplayed the messianic parts of their tradition, with occasional flare-ups of excitement over the centuries.

We can only speculate as to how Jewish messianism would have developed if the Jews had been living in their own established territory rather than being resident aliens everywhere. They seem to have lived relatively freely in Muslim countries, while in Europe they experienced more restriction and persecution.

Sheshbazzar

"Sheqer ha'sooce lee'tĕshuwah, oo' b'rob khayil'o lo emalat"

A horse is a horse of course of course, -unless- The Horse is the famous...

'Ha-Sooce', or in the Greek alphbet 'Ea-Sooce'

And then of course of course there is his 'rider(s)' and 'chariot(s)' (that which 'rides' or follows The Horse) the 'rekeb(im)', that collective retinue

Their 'wheels' are all set to fall off yet again!

As I said, time will tell. But these 'riders' are utterly blind to the pit they are about to plunge into.

What a hoot! They who so long have gained the say, are about to become the victims of words that they would not hear, do not know, and cannot understand.
Vengeance they have desired, and vengeance is what they shall reap.

Iskander

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
THE CREEDS


186 From the beginning, the apostolic Church expressed and handed on her faith in brief formula normative for all.1 But already very early on, the Church also wanted to gather the essential elements of her faith into organic and articulated summaries, intended especially for candidates for Baptism:

This synthesis of faith was not made to accord with human opinions, but rather what was of the greatest importance was gathered from all the Scriptures, to present the one teaching of the faith in its entirety. And just as the mustard seed contains a great number of branches in a tiny grain, so too this summary of faith encompassed in a few words the whole knowledge of the true religion contained in the Old and the New Testaments.2
187 Such syntheses are called "professions of faith" since they summarize the faith that Christians profess. They are called "creeds" on account of what is usually their first word in Latin: credo ("I believe"). They are also called "symbols of faith".
188 The Greek word symbolon meant half of a broken object, for example, a seal presented as a token of recognition. The broken parts were placed together to verify the bearer's identity. The symbol of faith, then, is a sign of recognition and communion between believers. Symbolon also means a gathering, collection or summary. A symbol of faith is a summary of the principal truths of the faith and therefore serves as the first and fundamental point of reference for catechesis
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2.htm

The credo is not “popular misconception”. Generation upon generation of Christians were indoctrinated by the credo. Augustine of Hippo is central to the doctrine and teachings of the catholic Church and people educated by the Church were anti-Semitic as the result of those teachings.

I don’t want to derail this thread and I will stop here.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.e...menos,_MLT.pdf

arnoldo

Jesus was a jew.