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Old 01-20-2009, 12:47 AM   #1
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Question Did Paul say Jesus or Christ?

In his writings, did Paul say Jesus (Christ) or Christ? Is it possible that all references to Jesus were interpolated later by scribes 'fixing the error'? IOW, that Paul wrote of a mythical Christ, never identifying him by a name?
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:59 AM   #2
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That is how I guessed too but not knowledgeable about it I hope somebody who read the oldest documents look into it cause he maybe only had a Cosmic Christ that reveal himself in visions in mind.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:53 AM   #3
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In his writings, did Paul say Jesus (Christ) or Christ? Is it possible that all references to Jesus were interpolated later by scribes 'fixing the error'? IOW, that Paul wrote of a mythical Christ, never identifying him by a name?
Paul consistently uses the term, Jesus Christ, throughout his letters. If Scribes had to 'fix the problem" they had an enormous task given the number of copies that would have existed and the different people who were making copies.
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Old 01-20-2009, 06:56 AM   #4
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In his writings, did Paul say Jesus (Christ) or Christ? Is it possible that all references to Jesus were interpolated later by scribes 'fixing the error'? IOW, that Paul wrote of a mythical Christ, never identifying him by a name?
The word "Jesus" is found over 200 times in the letters with the name Paul. The very first verses of all the letters mention Jesus Christ.

And why would a scribe have all the letters in his possession when the letters were supposed to have been dispersed to many churches all over the Empire?

If a scribe had interpolated some letters at one location, the letters in the all other numerous location would have still been unchanged, yet no letters have survived without the name Jesus.

In Against Marcion by Tertullian, the letters of the writer called Paul were used to contradict Marcion who claimed that Christ had no flesh at all, so, the letter writer called Paul wrote about a Jesus that had a body with flesh.

And Eusebius, in "Church History", claimed the letters of the writer called Paul are authentic.

These words are written in a letter. 1Cor2.2
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For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ and him crucified.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:27 AM   #5
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In his writings, did Paul say Jesus (Christ) or Christ? Is it possible that all references to Jesus were interpolated later by scribes 'fixing the error'? IOW, that Paul wrote of a mythical Christ, never identifying him by a name?
Well it's not like "Jesus Christ" would be pretty unique name/title in the first century. "Jesus" (Joshua) is a pretty common name, and "Christ" is a title given to any messiah claimant. There were lots of messiah claimants who were killed by the Romans and probably even more Joshuas.

It would be like saying that "Sergeant John Smith" is a uinque title in the U. S. military.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:33 AM   #6
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While most might be satisfied that mere presence of that name appearing in so many locations, in all the surviving mss, constitutes sufficient "proof", I for one do not.
In fact to me it looks like the evidence from a crime scene that has been tampered with, one where the perpetrators have erred by the planting of way too much such "evidence", in over interpolating of the name.
I would trust 1 Cor 2:2 as being much more authentic read as;
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For I determined not to know anything among you, save Christ and him crucified.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:48 AM   #7
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While most might be satisfied that mere presence of that name appearing in so many locations, in all the surviving mss, constitutes sufficient "proof", I for one do not.
In fact to me it looks like the evidence from a crime scene that has been tampered with, one where the perpetrators have erred by the planting of way too much such "evidence", in over interpolating of the name.
I would trust 1 Cor 2:2 as being much more authentic read as;
Quote:
For I determined not to know anything among you, save Christ and him crucified.
Well, it can then be assumed that it was the word "Christ" that was interpolated.

If Christ had no flesh how could he be crucified?

If I remove "Christ" from the passage, you will notice that it may appear very authentic, even more authentic than yours.

For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus and him crucified.

The interpolation theory is extremely weak.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:50 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Analyst View Post
In his writings, did Paul say Jesus (Christ) or Christ? Is it possible that all references to Jesus were interpolated later by scribes 'fixing the error'? IOW, that Paul wrote of a mythical Christ, never identifying him by a name?
Paul consistently uses the term, Jesus Christ, throughout his letters. If Scribes had to 'fix the problem" they had an enormous task given the number of copies that would have existed and the different people who were making copies.
Enormous task? given the number of copies?
Care to provide a reasoned estimate of how many "copies" existed in say, 125 AD?
How many have survived from that early?,
How many quotations from these "copies" have survived from that early?
What is your evidence that anyone was making "copies" that early?
What is the information are you basing your estimates on?
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:03 AM   #9
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Paul consistently uses the term, Jesus Christ, throughout his letters. If Scribes had to 'fix the problem" they had an enormous task given the number of copies that would have existed and the different people who were making copies.
Enormous task? given the number of copies?
Care to provide a reasoned estimate of how many "copies" existed in say, 125 AD?
How many have survived from that early?,
How many quotations from these "copies" have survived from that early?
What is your evidence that anyone was making "copies" that early?
What is the information are you basing your estimates on?
I hope you realise that you must be able to answer those very questions if you are of the view that "Jesus" was interpolated in the letters.

How many copies were there when the letters were interpolated?
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
While most might be satisfied that mere presence of that name appearing in so many locations, in all the surviving mss, constitutes sufficient "proof", I for one do not.
In fact to me it looks like the evidence from a crime scene that has been tampered with, one where the perpetrators have erred by the planting of way too much such "evidence", in over interpolating of the name.
I would trust 1 Cor 2:2 as being much more authentic read as;
Well, it can then be assumed that it was the word "Christ" that was interpolated.

If Christ had no flesh how could he be crucified?

If I remove "Christ" from the passage, you will notice that it may appear very authentic, even more authentic than yours.

For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus and him crucified.

The interpolation theory is extremely weak.
Chrestos cults existed long before the "Jesus" character was even "born", the incorporation of a Jewish messiah figure with a specific name is a late addition.
The "crucifixion" stories as fully developed in the latter Gospels were retrojected into the much earlier -authentic- Pauline epistles,
the church then created additional new "Pauline epistles" as vehicles to cover the gaps and to deliver their newly devised new testament gospel and theology.
The chrestos cults provided the bones,
"Paul" provided the innards,
The church added the ligaments and sinews,
that held it all together, and painting a new skin over all,
presented the dead body of "Jesus Christ" to a gullible world.
Yet there never was any body to be found.
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