Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cege · 10-01-2007, 11:24 AM

I don't want to sidetrack, but while searching for examples of ancient colophons I came across a claim that Genesis 26:5 indicates that Abraham had either written down laws or had received written laws of God, by use of the word chuqqim for "Jehovah's statues" in that verse. The Christian writer went on to say that chuqqim is "a written commandment, usually inscribed in stone", sourcing "1962 A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk). (BDB). Oxford: Clarendon."

Anyone have confirmation that chuqqim literally meant 'written in stone'?

Constant Mews · 10-01-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I don't want to sidetrack, but while searching for examples of ancient colophons I came across a claim that Genesis 26:5 indicates that Abraham had either written down laws or had received written laws of God, by use of the word chuqqim for "Jehovah's statues" in that verse. The Christian writer went on to say that chuqqim is "a written commandment, usually inscribed in stone", sourcing "1962 A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament. (BDB). Oxford: Clarendon."

Anyone have confirmation that chuqqim literally meant 'written in stone'?

It look erroneous to me;

Quote:

Chuqqim Biblical Hebrew root: "to survey." Sifra: "the duties that are followed." According to Maimonides, unlike Mishpatim, commandments which have a reasonable explanation, Chuqqim are the commandments which seem to be unconnected to ordinary reason, and therefore need to be followed just for the sake of obedience. (GUIDE FOR THE PURPLEXED, 3: 26)

from here.

Toto · 10-01-2007, 11:38 AM

I will split this off for more comments.

chuqqim

Quote:

Biblical Hebrew root: "to survey." Sifra: "the duties that are followed." According to Maimonides, unlike Mishpatim, commandments which have a reasonable explanation, Chuqqim are the commandments which seem to be unconnected to ordinary reason, and therefore need to be followed just for the sake of obedience. (GUIDE FOR THE PERPLEXED)

more

Quote:

According to Danny Matt

The Sifra, (Lev. 19:4) distinguishes between mishpatim (judgments) and chuqqim ("decrees"). Mishpatim include prohibitions against robbery, incest, murder and other laws that would be valid even if they never appeared in the Torah. Chuqqim, on the other hand, are divine decrees that do not seem at first to have as rational a basis.

There is a large body of rabbinical literature that concerns itself with ta'amey ha-mitzvot (reasons for the mitzvot.) There was a constant tension between those who felt that every mitzvah must have a rational reason for its existence and those who felt it was enough that it was commanded. Sometimes even the Torah gives a reason for a mitzvah. In Numbers we are told that the commandment to wear tzitzit is so we can "look at it and recall all the commandments of the Lord and observe them." In Deuteronomy, we are simply commanded.

Many of those opposed to the pursuit of reasons for doing mitzvot ultimately felt that these reasons can and have led to the abandonment of mitzvot.

Toto · 10-01-2007, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

I don't want to sidetrack, but while searching for examples of ancient colophons I came across a claim that Genesis 26:5 indicates that Abraham had either written down laws or had received written laws of God, by use of the word chuqqim for "Jehovah's statues" in that verse. The Christian writer went on to say that chuqqim is "a written commandment, usually inscribed in stone", sourcing "1962 A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk). (BDB). Oxford: Clarendon."

Anyone have confirmation that chuqqim literally meant 'written in stone'?

I added the amazon link above, but I can't find anything there to support that interpretation.

You were reading From What Did Moses Compose Genesis? by Dr. David Livingston, which actually claims

Quote:

A "chuqqim" is a written commandment, usually inscribed in stone (BDB,1962: 350:d). The word "chuqqim" comes from a root meaning to engrave, and hence denotes permanent and prescribed rules of conduct . . . (NBC 1930: 201.).

NBC is Guthre, D., (Ed.) 1970 The New Bible Commentary (or via: amazon.co.uk), a much less impressive source.

Cege · 10-01-2007, 12:16 PM

Quote:

You were reading From What Did Moses Compose Genesis? by Dr. David Livingston...

NBC is Guthre, D., (Ed.) 1970 The New Bible Commentary, a much less impressive source.

Thank you for that correction.

The source for the writer's claim is a bible commentary and not a Hebrew/English lexicon.

I looked around briefly but didn't see anything that supports a 'written in stone' definition for chuqqim. So far it looks like an unsupported speculation by a bible commentator.

spin · 10-01-2007, 12:53 PM

In origin the idea of XQH (fem) and XQ (masc), ie something prescribed (and I can't really see a difference between the masculine and feminine), comes from the verb XQQ whose original sense is "inscribe", but has more generally come to mean "decree" (v.). All the uses of XQH and HQ and their plurals regard laws, statutes, enactments.

(And a small quibble, in Gen 26:5 the word is not XQYM but XQWT -- the feminine plural.)

spin

Toto · 10-01-2007, 01:16 PM

So it does derive from a word meaning inscription, or engrave? And the source that claims it derives from a word meaning "to survey?"

spin · 10-01-2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

So it does derive from a word meaning inscription, or engrave? And the source that claims it derives from a word meaning "to survey?"

It seems to be a post-biblical form.

Jastrow, whose dictionary is of the talmuds and the mishnah, gives a verb indicated as XQY, XQH, 1) "to draw circles, to survey" and 2) "to imitate a person's customs, to follow a person's footsteps". But this seems to be derived from the noun XWQ, which he indicates is the biblical XQ, "[circle, drawing, engraving,] law, rule, custom; assigned share, mark."

So we go from the biblical verb XQQ -> XQ -> XWQ -> XQY & XQH.

spin

Cege · 10-01-2007, 03:50 PM

I see various Hebrew sites that has chuqqim as decrees by Yahweh that aren't necessarily logical, reasonable, or rational. (Here and here, for example)

No mention of engraved or even written, from sites like those.

DamnYankees · 10-01-2007, 04:03 PM

A "choq" (same thing, I imagine, this is just how I pronounce it) is a law from god which has no explanation, and we are not meant to search for it. It just is. One of the most famous ones is the choq of "Para adumah", or Red Cow, where a pure red cow (no more than 2 white hairs on the entire body) was burnt and the ashes were used to purify. Jewish laws were split up into different types (kind of like how we split US law into Torts, Contracts, etc), and the idea of a choq was one of those categories of law.

Sorry, I don't have any sources for this, but I was raised an Orthodox Jew and this is a well known and prominent concept, so I guess you'll just have to trust me lol.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-01-2007, 11:24 AM	#1
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	I don't want to sidetrack, but while searching for examples of ancient colophons I came across a claim that Genesis 26:5 indicates that Abraham had either written down laws or had received written laws of God, by use of the word chuqqim for "Jehovah's statues" in that verse. The Christian writer went on to say that chuqqim is "a written commandment, usually inscribed in stone", sourcing "1962 A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament (or via: amazon.co.uk). (BDB). Oxford: Clarendon." Anyone have confirmation that chuqqim literally meant 'written in stone'?

10-01-2007, 12:53 PM	#6
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	In origin the idea of XQH (fem) and XQ (masc), ie something prescribed (and I can't really see a difference between the masculine and feminine), comes from the verb XQQ whose original sense is "inscribe", but has more generally come to mean "decree" (v.). All the uses of XQH and HQ and their plurals regard laws, statutes, enactments. (And a small quibble, in Gen 26:5 the word is not XQYM but XQWT -- the feminine plural.) spin

10-01-2007, 01:16 PM	#7
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	So it does derive from a word meaning inscription, or engrave? And the source that claims it derives from a word meaning "to survey?"

10-01-2007, 03:50 PM	#9
Cege Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: 36078 Posts: 849	I see various Hebrew sites that has chuqqim as decrees by Yahweh that aren't necessarily logical, reasonable, or rational. (Here and here, for example) No mention of engraved or even written, from sites like those.

10-01-2007, 04:03 PM	#10
DamnYankees Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Bay Area Posts: 153	A "choq" (same thing, I imagine, this is just how I pronounce it) is a law from god which has no explanation, and we are not meant to search for it. It just is. One of the most famous ones is the choq of "Para adumah", or Red Cow, where a pure red cow (no more than 2 white hairs on the entire body) was burnt and the ashes were used to purify. Jewish laws were split up into different types (kind of like how we split US law into Torts, Contracts, etc), and the idea of a choq was one of those categories of law. Sorry, I don't have any sources for this, but I was raised an Orthodox Jew and this is a well known and prominent concept, so I guess you'll just have to trust me lol.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.