Jack the Bodiless

Well, if the Bible contains information we NEED for our salvation: then we NEED evidence that it's of divine authorship, in order to believe it and be saved.

...So it NEEDS to contain knowledge that wouldn't be accessible to Bronze Age goat-herders, but which is nevertheless verifiable.

It certainly NEEDS to be free of obvious errors.

It isn't: so it lacks knowledge we NEED.

inquisitive01

Please define and elaborate on those "obvious" errors (or shall I just take your word on that?).

Yes, the term "NEED" or "NEEDS" would not include ANY luxuries. As for evolution, the person who stated "that's not really fair" shares my views on that since, yes, I do feel that for evolution to truly be doing it's job well (noting here that the job it is doing is sufficient and good enough, however), I would NEED to have some type of advancement beyond that which I have... not NEED as in "I can't live without it."

Asha'man

This is the wrong forum for evolution discussions, but since you are not actually talking about evolution at all, I don't feel bad about bringing this up.

For evolution to be doing it's job well, you need to be born and survive to reproduce. Nothing more. Clearly, you have already done the first part, though I don't know about the second. So, whatever you are referring to when you use the word "evolution", it is not the same thing the rest of us are referring to.

Xrikcus

No, I merely know your views on it, I do not share them. I was merely clarifying the term "need" for others, as I understood you.

Amaleq13

This has been explained to you before in other threads where the topic is not an inappropriate tangent but I am convinced you are capable of improving your understanding:

The process of evolution is not about "advancement" but it is about working sufficiently and/or good enough. "Good enough" is what produces far more failures (extinctions) than successes (surviving species). "Good enough" is what produces vestigial organs and less than optimal structures. "Good enough" is really all that a natural process incapable of planning ahead can obtain and "good enough" is exactly what is observed in the diversity of existing life.

If you cannot avoid anthropomorphizing the process, then the only "goal" or "need" evolution has is the continuation of life in some form. That's it. Even if that means there are only bugs and plants on the planet, evolution is still "happy" because life continues to reproduce.

You may now return to a subject more appropriate for the BC&H forum.

Sven

Well, it starts on the very first page: The order of creation of animals is simply wrong. So even if you subscribe to theistic evolution (you still have not clarified what you believe exactly), Genesis 1 is plainly wrong. Not to mention the failure of YECism here...

I hope this isn't to much of a derailment, but if is, I kindly ask the mods to split the thread of this discussion continues.

Amaleq13

Since I clearly knowingly contributed to your delinquency it would hardly be fair to accuse you of derailment but, unless the discussion focuses on an accurate understanding of the process, I suspect it will not be tolerated over at E/C. There is a significant difference between offering criticisms of the process as it is currently understood by professional scientists and offering criticisms based on a personal misunderstanding of that process. The former would be welcomed with open arms (and drooling mouths ) while the latter has, historically, inevitably deteriorated into a complete waste of everyone's time.

Joshua Adams

What things do we need to know? Do you include survival, or is this limited to salvation? Is it even more inclusive to apply to well-being also?

Different people have different needs in different situations. If you're lost in the woods, you may need to know how to navigate; supposedly, you learn plenty of tricks for that in boy scouts that could help you survive, none of which are found in the Bible. Does this count as knowledge you need?

Does the Bible tell you to avoid lighting matches near gas? Do you need to know this?

Other things... does a neurosurgeon need to know what the hell he's doing as far as performing operations goes? If so, what chapter and verse is this information found in?

If health and well-being are important, then where is the Biblical formula for soap? Antibiotics? Where does it say to thoroughly cook meat? Just where does it give us any practical advice that is relevant to today's world, or any other?

wardy

Dr Paine, thanks for the discussion and taking time to clarify your statements for me. You make some very accuarate observations and make a few statements that I would like to ask a few questions about.

You are correct in mentioning that the Bible is not in Chronological order if you are referring to the order in which the books are bound together in the series. Mark or 1 Corinthians was most likly one of the first books of the New Testament written and many scholars believe that Job was written before Genesis. The order of the 66 books is definitely not "inspired" nor claims to be. To stay on topic I agree that all knowledge is not in the Bible. The writers of the gospels never mention Christ taking a wizz. If a writer of the gospel is hitting the teachings of Christ and not writing a Chronological account of His life then he may hit different events in His life at different times in order to make His point. (This could account for Matthew being inconsistent with Luke).

Now. You mentioned that:
I think I agree with you. Many of the writers of the Bible wrote their books for specific purposes and they let us know that they did: (John 20:31, Luke 1:1-4) Paul writing Timothy encouraging him not to give up.

What blows my mind is that there ARE some common themes that I think a person can observe running throughout the Span of the 66 books. Now, not every book may contain every specific detail of every theme as you said as each book was not written to be part of one centralized theme but we do see some things that flow from Genesis (or Job) through Revelation. Here are a few.

1. Bloody sheep or sacrifices: Adam and Eve coved after found naked with the fur of an animal (hard to imagine the animal being alive), the Ram substituted for Issaac, John the Baptist declaring when seeing Christ come, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." In Revelation: REV 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood—

2. Man's unfailing desire to live independantly from Him. Sin.
3. God's desire to interact with Man.
4. God's valuing His Name above all things including man (Rom 9).
5. God's Judgement for sin. (seen in Christ, sodom and Gom. Rev.)

You mentioned earlier that the centralized theme is in the heads of the "harmonizers and apologists". I think that if one took a highlighter and started reading through Genesis to Revelation that they would be able to see many of the above ideas flow throughout the 66 books.

Agnostic Theist

Maybe people who depend entirely on a couple of books to for all knowledge don't deserve to know everything.