Originally Posted by Julian

I suspect that the destruction of Jerusalem would have been fairly uninteresting to the author of John. GJohn is not a particularly apocalyptic writing, as far as I understand, it mostly argues for the fact that the church and the paraclete are the legacy of Jesus and, as such, are already present.

GJohn seems to have been reliant on the signs source, which is probably a very early, but hypothetical, document, if memory serves.

The argument from silence is always a dangerous one, but occasionally insightful.

Also, bear in mind that GJohn is outside the synoptic tradition. Although, to what extent I could not say, GJohn is not my best area.

Julian

Originally Posted by me

While the parable stories are missing, He continues to use metaphors to illustrate his points. As he says in John 16:25 Jesus says in 16:25 “I have said this to you in figures; the hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures.� Some of the figures in common with the synoptics are:

He referenced the harvesting of the fields 4:35
reference to a shining lamp 5:35
reference to eating of his flesh, and drinking of his blood (similar to Last Supper) 6:53,
sheep and shephards

Not so common with the synoptics, but figures nonetheless are his references to the Bread of Life the Vine, the Resurrection and Life, the Living Waters.

A few phrases/words in common are “truly I say unto you�, “sons of light�, “drink the cup�, “Son of Man�

And there are events or references in common:

John the baptist’s preaching, baptism of Jesus
The call of Andrew and Peter to become disciples
Driving the money changers from the temple
The reference to John the Baptist in prison
John the Baptists response over the lack of fasting or ‘purifying’ of Jesus’ disciples, and referring to Jesus as the ‘bridegroom’.
Jesus healed on the sabbath, which displeased the religious
Many references by Jesus to himself as the Son of man. Ex: 5:27 (the Father) “has given him authority to execute judgement, because he is the Son of man�
The feeding of the 5000, very similar in details
The walking on the water
The people ask Jesus for a sign of proof
Peter’s affirmation that Jesus is the Messiah
He was accused of being possessed by a demon
People marveled at his teaching with authority at the temples without having studied, and having knowledge of his parents and family
People didn’t always understand what he was saying
He used his spittle to heal a blind man
The anointing by Mary in Bethany
Triumphal entry into Jerulalem on a colt
At the Lord’s supper: focus on serving others, fruit of the vine reference, identifies his betrayer as the one who shares his bread with him
His announcement of going separating from his disciples
Prediction of Peter’s denial
Betrayal by Judas, arrest, cutting off of ear of slave of high priest at arrest
Peter’s denial
Questioning by Caiaphus the high priest. His account has more detail which may be accounted for by the authors presence there.
Scourging, crown of thorns, purple robe
release of Barabbus
Crucifiction details: at Golgotha, in the middle of 2 others, title on the cross of “Jesus of Nazereth, the King of the Jews�, division of his garments by casting lots, vinigar offered to Him when he says he ‘thirsts’
Burial by Joseph of Arimathea
New tomb in a garden
Women visiting the tomb
Appearance to Mary Magdelene
Appearance to 10 disciples on first evening in Jerusalem
Charge to the disciples to spread the gospel


In addition, there are a number of things Jesus said in John that are recorded, although sometimes in a different setting, in the synoptics:

John Matthew Mark Luke Reference:
2:19 26:61 14:58 X Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up.

3:35 28:18 X X All authority has been given to Jesus

4:44 13:57 6:4 4:24 A profit has no honor in his own country

5:23 X X10:16 He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him/He who rejects me rejects him who sent me

5:29 25:46 X X those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment/and they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life

7:28-29 11:27 X X he who sent me is true, and him you do not know. I know him, for I come from him/All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son..

9:39 13:13 X X those who see may become blind/seeing they do not see

12:8 26:11 14:7 X The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me

12:25 10:39 8:35 9:24 He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in the world will keep it for eternal life/Whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.

12:27 26:38-39 14:34 X Now my soul is troubled. And what whall I say? Father save me from this hour?/My soul is very sorrowful. My father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me; nevertheless not as I will but as thou wilt.

12:44 10:40 X X He who believes in me believes not in me but in him who sent me/He who receives me receives him who sent me

13:16 10:24 X X A servant isn’t greater than his master

13:20 10:40 X 10:16 He who receives anyone whom I send receives me/He who receives you receives me.

15:8 5:16 X X By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit/..that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven

It is clear, then, that much of what John writes about is in the synoptics also, even prior to his entry into Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

GJohn knows about the expulsion of Christians from the synagogues, hence it had to have been written after the destruction of the Temple.

Originally Posted by TedM

Hi Diogenes. Can you cite a verse for me?

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

John 9:22 (KJV) "These [words] spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue."

12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue"

16:2 "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

I wouldn't make too much of the tense form. Individual pericopes of the Gospels in Greek often take the present tense. Mark does it a lot. It was a stylistic convention of sorts- kind of like how people tend to tell jokes in the present tense ("A Rabbi, a priest and a chicken walk into a bar..."). My guess would be that particular pericope could have survived from an earlier oral form and simply been preserved in that form when it was incorporated into GJohn. Raymond Brown, a well respected (and fairly conservative) scholar, believed that GJohn possessed, at its core, some authentic memories of a person who knew HJ but that this core was layered over with other sources (Signs Gospel perhaps?) in creating Canonical John.

Originally Posted by Ben C Smith

Ted, if you are interested in a conservative (some might say hyperconservative) date for the gospel of John, I recommend J. A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament and The Priority of John. Robinson in fact dates every New Testament book to before 70; he is of course not widely followed in that.

As for the implications of dating John to before 70, they would be dramatic. After reading Bauckham, The Gospels for All Christians, I think Mark would have to be pushed back a ways, since John presumes Mark, and along with Streeter I would think that Luke would have to be pushed back, too, since John appears to presume Luke. The direct effect on Matthew would be less certain, but if Luke knew Matthew (as per Farrer or the three-source theory) then it, too, would have to be redated.

Ben.

Originally Posted by TedM

I don't recall seeing any prophecies of the temple destruction/Roman invasion, etc. in GJohn. Nor any allusions to it by the author(s). Note too 5:2: " 2and there is in Jerusalem by the sheep-[gate] a pool that is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches." That place is known to have existed and to have been destroyed in 70AD, but the reference seems to have no knowledge of such destruction. Might all these suggest that GJohn, or portions of it, were written prior to 70AD?

My understanding is that the current thinking is that GJohn was aware of GMark's material. Does this not suggest that GMark was also written before 70AD?

What are the implications of each of these? Do they impact the probability that the gospels are stories made up long after the alleged time of Jesus' life about a man who never really lived?

ted