Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 11-02-2008, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Guilbaud

Also, the fact that we have a collection of sayings nowadays with a name
doesn't mean that it had a name at its beginning.
If we accept that the name can change, we might also accept that it could just be added.

Dear Vincent Guilbaud,

As far as I am aware the codex containing the gThomas recovered from Nag Hammadi does not in fact mention the full name of Jesus, but an abbreviated name (nomina sacra) which could also be expanded out to mean "The Healer" in the coptic. If you'd like some further info please ask.

Best wishes,

Pete

Toto · 11-02-2008, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Suppose this founder was named Levi and hung out in the taverns and talked a lot, but died peacefully in his sleep, leaving a wife and 10 children. Would you still call him the historical Jesus?

Dear Toto,

If he rose on the third day from his slumbers ...

He didn't. This is my hypothetical, don't try to change it.

Is there any archeological evidence of Stoicism? or any purely philosophical school?

mountainman · 11-03-2008, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Is there any archeological evidence of Stoicism? or any purely philosophical school?

What about the Academy in Athens? (Know thyself). Closely associated with this (IMO) is the gnostic philosophy expressed in the Nag Hammadi tractates between Hermes and Asclepius. If we are to presume that this material if representative of a philosophical school, we certainly have abundant and substantial archaeological evidence for a network of temples, shrines, and their associated libraries to the Roman empire's healing cult of Asclepius.

Best wishes,

Pete

andrewcriddle · 11-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Guilbaud

A.Criddle said

Quote:

most ancient collections of wisdom sayings are clearly assigned to a supposed human author.
(Not necessarily the true author).

Does anyone know of a non human author for a collection of sayings?
Or one without being assigned to anyone in particular ?

Also, the fact that we have a collection of sayings nowadays with a name
doesn't mean that it had a name at its beginning.
If we accept that the name can change, we might also accept that it could just be added.

Quote:

I find the idea that Q originally circulated without a supposed human author primafacie unlikely.

Not me.

I think there are two issues here.

I think it unlikely that Q1, (the hypothetical earliest written form of the Q tradition), circulated without an assigned author (Proverbs for example, from which you quoted, is assigned, probably wrongly, to Solomon and other ancient figures.)

NB I am assuming, for the sake of this thread, the reality of the successive versions of Q, although I am personally dubious.

Individual sayings in Q1, however, might well be attributed to the divine wisdom, see for example the Q passage Luke 11 49-51 = Matthew 23:34-36 which in Luke is a claim by Jesus about the divine wisdom and in Matthew a straightforward statement by Jesus.

Whether the particular passages you quote can all be plausibly attributed to the divine wisdom is less clear. It partly depends on whether the speaker is presented as a role model or examplar. If so it would seem more likely that the speaker is a human being rather than the divine wisdom. eg if the references in Thomas to hating and loving ones family, in the same way as the speaker does were original, (IMO unlikely), then the speaker is presumably a human individual.

Andrew Criddle

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