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John Kesler · 06-30-2009, 07:35 AM

J.P. Holding has blocked Internet Archive from access to his site Tektonics.org. Try accessing it, and you get the following message:

Quote:

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Holding has not blocked access to his cartoon site, tektoonics.com

One thing that has changed on his apologetics site is the mission statement, which used to read in part (with my emphasis):

Quote:

...In a sense, INTJs approach reality as they would a giant chess board, always seeking strategies that have a high payoff, and always devising contingency plans in case of error or adversity. (So, critics can spare that rot they like to use about me being afraid to find that Christianity is not true....I have my "contingency" already: deism. And frankly, if deism were true it'd make my life a lot easier, so I have every motive to wish it were, if indeed it was true.)

Perhaps he thought that it wouldn't look good for an apologist-- whose flagship article, The Impossible Faith, argues that the resurrection is the only explanation for Christianity's rise--to acknowledge that even he has a contingency religious plan. If it's impossible for Christianity to be untrue, then why is any contingency needed?

Steven Carr · 06-30-2009, 01:37 PM

I see JP (No Link) Holding doesn't even want people to see what he wrote, let alone what people write when they demolish his arguments.

No wonder JP Holding got the name JP (No Link) Holding, as he can only survive by hiding as much as possible from the people who give him money.

manwithdream · 06-30-2009, 04:12 PM

Why should anybody care about what JP Holding does? I think it pays to be insulting because that makes you famous and somehow important.

Kenneth Greifer
http://www.messianicmistakes.com/

aileron · 06-30-2009, 04:47 PM

Holding isn't even good for a laugh anymore.

brettpalmer · 07-02-2009, 10:51 AM

What really turns my stomach is the way he's whored his site so much on the net under the delusion that it's popular because it's right and is of such high quality. Just the other day I ran a Google search for C. Dennis McKinsey because of his passing and the very first hit Google returned was to one of Holding's hack jobs on Tekton.

How the hell can Holding have a higher hit than the actual skeptic? It's sickening.

general_koffi · 07-03-2009, 05:07 AM

Who the hell is JP Holding?

Anyway, before we get carried away, FRDB also blocks the Internet Archive. It tends to violate privacy.

John Kesler · 07-12-2009, 08:15 AM

For more proof that Holding has a contingency plan (Deism), just in case Christianity is false, read the exchanges found here between Holding and D.L. Bennett, aka "Realist."

Among the highlights:

Quote:

Bennett:
While I'm intellectually slamming you into the wall, you might want to consider that contingency plan of yours: deism. That's right folks -- Holding has stated explicitly on his website that he has a "Plan B" in case Christianity is wrong. Now, there's true conviction for you! Go ahead, Holding: become a Deist and join the ranks of some of our most notable founding fathers. Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Benjamin Franklin -- I'm sure they'd be glad to have you. Actually, I take that back. They are highly-esteemed visionaries. You wouldn't fit in.

Holding:
Oh. Having a plan B means you lack conviction. Good thing you aren't the head of OSHA.

Quote:

Bennett:
I still can't believe, however, that such a pervasive and professed Christian would have a "Plan B" appealing to Deism. Considering his physical proportions, maybe he just misspelled "Diet". Or perhaps he thinks Deism means "the act or instance of dieting". Wouldn't suprise me, considering that he also probably thinks the earth is only 6,000 years old (6,000, coincidentally, being directly proportional to his belt-size)... Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. But, in case I'm wrong, make sure you have a CONTINGENCY PLAN!"

Holding:
Sure glad "Realist" doesn't work for the health and safety people!

It's a shame he can't actually show why it's wrong to have a fallback position. Of course if it were someone who didn't, he'd call them narrow-minded sheep who cling to something because they have no other option!

That's what it means to be a "fundy atheist"! And remember kiddies -- loftuscite kills!

Quote:

Bennett:
Jesus,

I accept You as my Lord and Savior. You are my Guiding Light in a world cloaked in sin. You are my Strength. You are my Rock. You are the one and only Son of God. You have all Authority in Heaven and on Earth. And I Fully Submit All that I Am Unto You. But, just in case you're a phony, I want you to know that I have a Fallback Plan.

Praise Be Unto You! (I think....)

Holding:
Well, I guess we won't get any explanation from "Realist" showing why it's wrong to have an idea what one will believe if one's current beliefs are disproven. He's too busy writing fundy atheist screenplays.

I recommend reading the entire exchange, if for no other reason than for the entertainment value. But the key here, I believe, is that Holding himself best undermines the whole premise of "The Impossible Faith." As I said earlier in this thread, if Holding truly believes that it's impossible for Christianity to have started without the benefit of anything other than Jesus' resurrection, then why does Holding need a contingency plan? :huh:

brettpalmer · 07-12-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

I recommend reading the entire exchange, if for no other reason than for the entertainment value. But the key here, I believe, is that Holding himself best undermines the whole premise of "The Impossible Faith." As I said earlier in this thread, if Holding truly believes that it's impossible for Christianity to have started without the benefit of anything other than Jesus' resurrection, then why does Holding need a contingency plan? :huh:

I agree, John. It's pretty devastating to have the "seminal" paper on your apologetic website be a defense of a faith you claim MUST be true because it was too impossible to believe were it a lie, then to admit to having a "back up" plan in case you're wrong! It's absurd to the highest.

I haven't read the exchange between Bennet and Holding yet (I'll probably have time tomorrow to get into it) but if Holding's last remark is accurate, that Bennet never explained why having a "back up" theology is such an absurdity, let me see if I can offer a reason: Because it shows your faith doesn't have a backbone, Holding! Get it now? I certainly don't have a back up plan for my non-theism. I don't hold agnosticism in the wings, "just in case I'm wrong." What utter absurdity if you've claimed some sort of conviction for your position (especially when you've set yourself up as a defender of that position and take money from others to defend it on their behalf as well).

I've read, or heard somewhere, that Holding does speaking engagements with church teens. I wonder if when he's done with his presentation on the "Impossible Faith" if he hold them over for a discussion on a good "contingency plan" just like OSHA? As if religious faith and working conditions were on some "one-to-one correspondence."

Thanks for bringing this up, John. I've been touring Holding's site lately, finding material for my own, and the more I read this guy the more I'm convinced he's either a charlatan or a kook. I can't understand his popularity among the internet fundy crowd. He's about as thin, intellectually, as rice paper. But like a (rice-)paper tiger, he makes a lot of noise, and sounds impressive, but scratch the surface just a little bit and he falls apart.

John Kesler · 07-15-2009, 05:38 PM

Palmer,
If you thought that the Amazon.com discussion that I found was good, you'll love this post from TheologyWeb.com, with my emphasis:

Quote:

"fiddlin-john":
ever thought of giving the readers a chapter on any doubts you still may have? are there engimas out there you still are wrestling with?

Holding:
No. It doesn't work like that for an INTJ.

When we know what we know, there are no doubts.

When we don't know what we don't know, it doesn't waste our time inspiring doubts or wrestling matches.

When we first look into a topic, we reserve judgment until we have sufficient data. Neither black nor white but blank.

If you want to hear a sob story, turn on The Young and the Restless. If you want to see wrestling, turn on Monday Night Raw.

Ya ain't gettin' neither from ME.

Now compare this with what I quote from Holding in the OP, again with my emphasis:

Quote:

...In a sense, INTJs approach reality as they would a giant chess board, always seeking strategies that have a high payoff, and always devising contingency plans in case of error or adversity. (So, critics can spare that rot they like to use about me being afraid to find that Christianity is not true....I have my "contingency" already: deism. And frankly, if deism were true it'd make my life a lot easier, so I have every motive to wish it were, if indeed it was true.)

Not only does it appear that Holding doesn't truly believe that the Christian faith's origins are "impossible" to be anything but divine, he also seems uncertain about the attributes of INTJs: If, as he says in the TWeb post, INTJs have "no doubts," how can they "always devis[e] contingency plans in case of error"?

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06-30-2009, 01:37 PM	#2
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	I see JP (No Link) Holding doesn't even want people to see what he wrote, let alone what people write when they demolish his arguments. No wonder JP Holding got the name JP (No Link) Holding, as he can only survive by hiding as much as possible from the people who give him money.

06-30-2009, 04:12 PM	#3
manwithdream Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: united states Posts: 156	Why should anybody care about what JP Holding does? I think it pays to be insulting because that makes you famous and somehow important. Kenneth Greifer http://www.messianicmistakes.com/

06-30-2009, 04:47 PM	#4
aileron Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Bible Belt, USA Posts: 62	Holding isn't even good for a laugh anymore.

07-02-2009, 10:51 AM	#5
brettpalmer Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: http://www.thebibleskeptic.com Posts: 74	What really turns my stomach is the way he's whored his site so much on the net under the delusion that it's popular because it's right and is of such high quality. Just the other day I ran a Google search for C. Dennis McKinsey because of his passing and the very first hit Google returned was to one of Holding's hack jobs on Tekton. How the hell can Holding have a higher hit than the actual skeptic? It's sickening.

07-03-2009, 05:07 AM	#6
general_koffi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Johannesburg, South Africa Posts: 10,887	Who the hell is JP Holding? Anyway, before we get carried away, FRDB also blocks the Internet Archive. It tends to violate privacy.

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