Evo

Why would the vatican have a need for a secret libary? Espically considering our "eternal danmation" rest on our understanding of christianity. Why would they feel the need to keep something hidden? unless they where covering something up?

does anybody know anything (possible rumors) about some of the "unkown" documents contained within the vatican?


http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

Peter Kirby

They just want to hoard what's theirs, perhaps keep a little mystique to the grand old religion, and of course make sure the antiquities aren't damaged. It's the same mentality that kept Codex Vaticanus from the scholarly world for a long time. You might find some fascinating stuff like the complete Papias, but I don't believe they have the body of Christ or something similarly sensational hidden in their vaults.

best,
Peter Kirby

Insomniac Dreams

It's not exactly very secret if they advertise it's existence AND publish links to documents contained within it on the web though.....

shame i don't speak italian though.....

Bill

Of course not, or else they wouldn't be "unknown" documents!

Anyway, for 103 Euros each you can have any of the CD-ROMs of whatever it is that the Vatican wishes you to think is in their "Secret Archive." Anybody want to bet that "the good stuff" is still secret?

Oh, for those of you who don't read Italian, have you ever heard of BabelFish Translations? Here is part of the above page (not the greatest translation, but its free and instant): It looks like its about $60,000 or so for a complete set of everything that they have produced to date (that is with the 30% quantity discount). The rest will need to be ordered as it is converted to CD-ROM.

== Bill

Barcode

The Vatican ... covering something up? Blasphemous I tell ye.

Amos

The "good stuff" must remain a secret because Catholicism is a mystery religion and if the mystery was disclosed beforehand there would be no need for the religion. The basis for this is to have heaven and hell on earth while we are alive and there is no other way to achieve this except throught the unfolding of the mystery in real life.

demoninho

I guess we're too late

Calzaer

Doesn't that make the religion less about the Truth and the salvation of man and more about the perpetuation of itself as a controlling political power?

Roger Pearse

Firstly, the archivio segreto ('secret archive') and the bibliotheca apostolica (Vatican library) are different things. I don't know if they even share the same physical space these days. The latter is the Vatican collection of manuscripts and rare books. The former is the archives of the papal state.

We tend to forget that until the reunification of Italy, the Pope was ex officio a European political ruler. All states have their archives which are not open to the public, as every politician needs somewhere to hide the bodies, as it were. The Vatican State, of course, continues to have a political as well as a religious role, and no doubt the archives still contain material for which it would be unreasonable to expect publication any time soon.

The Vatican Library is another matter. By chance I came across a discussion of the library, and its reorganisation in the 19th century, in a collection of papers which I had ordered for some other reason. I wish I had kept a reference or a copy. It was rather interesting.

In the 19th century, the library was one of the worst places for access in Europe. It required very substantial credentials to obtain access at all. Then, a researcher was not permitted even to view the catalogue. Nor did a proper catalogue exist. A project had been created to catalogue everything in a comprehensive way -- this, in practise, ensured that no usuable catalogue was created, while the staff dawdled over every last comma in the 'real' catalogue. No form of copying was permitted, nor were visitors allowed to copy by hand anything.

As a consequence of this, all sorts of rumours grew up that the Vatican had something to hide. All such libraries have (or had) 'closed shelves', on which restricted material is placed for which special authorisation is required. In the past, for instance, this would contain the pornographic books of antiquity. (I imagine in our more liberated days it contains instead political and religious material obnoxious to the establishment, but this is only my guess). It was known that from the 17th-19th centuries, the Vatican Library closed shelves included the only medieval manuscript of Zosimus' "New History", the 6th century pagan invective against Constantine and his dynasty (although a bootleg copy of it somehow escaped, and was the basis of all editions until the 1870's). From all of this, conspiracy theory flourished!

What was actually happening on the ground was something more prosaic. Most of the popes were not bibliophiles and cared little about the library. Control devolved on the Prefect and his staff, who therefore behaved as bureaucrats always behave, and took the 'safe' option (for them) of preventing access, and generally allowing nothing to happen for which anyone anywhere might blame them. Furthermore, the staff were all Italians -- and even today, I have attempted in vain to get a response to emails from manuscript libraries there, such as Turin and San Daniel.

Eventually a pope came along who got fed up with the bad publicity, and turned the library over to Swiss Catholics. These, being Germans, were all very efficient (e.g. they do reply to email), and in consequence all of these problems evaporated. A facsimile of the Vaticanus Graecus 1209 (B) of the bible was made available, and the collection has become one of the best known collections in the western world. Discoveries are still made, because no cataloguing system is perfect; but as you see, they were very swift to get involved in digital library projects, and I suspect are still a very well-run organisation.

But of course the legend lingers...

Many people suppose that, since the papacy is an ancient organisation, the Vatican Library is also ancient. But Rome has been sacked many times, and the popes have often been in exile. The modern Vatican Library is the work of Leo X, in the early 16th century, and so is a renaissance collection. But of course, as pope, he had excellent opportunities (although then as now, popes are not as all-powerful in practise as in theory). No library has been preserved from antiquity in the west intact as a going concern. The collapse of Roman society ensured that.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Amos

No, it is all about discovering Truth through the salvation of believers. In Catholicism salvation enters the believer into Purgatory during which time the God image of man is to be redeemed. In their view (as I see it) humans are saved and man-in-the-image-of-God must be redeemed between the first and second death before we can have heaven on earth. If, then, heaven exists only between our first and second death it would be foolish to wait until we die our second death before anything good can happen to us.

Absolutly not. The Church is meant to be the Upper House and provides guidance only to the lower house just as the subconscious mind provides guidance to our conscious mind. If this leads to the manifestation of wisdom in the civilization that would be good for all while the Church does not get the credit for it because it is not the actual government but works both above and below the state.