Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Magdlyn · 09-29-2004, 06:19 AM

Quote:

His original name was Simon (שמעון "Hearkening; listening", Standard Hebrew �*imʿon, Tiberian Hebrew �*imʿôn), but he was given the nickname of Peter, which means rock in Greek (Petros);...Paul called him [or someone] Cephas or Kephas, which is the Aramaic equivalent of the nickname. This nickname is explained by the statement of Jesus Christ that either he or his faith is "the rock I will build my community on" (Matthew 16:17-19)

Somewhere I read, Simon is referred to as "pebble" and Jesus goes on to say, "on this rock," which is a different word, by one vowel.

Petros, Petras, Petrus? Someone got the original Greek? B/c I read it seems to suggest Peter is not the rock, just a pebble, and the church will be built on a larger rock. (As Peter was pretty darn stupid, with little true faith in the gospels. His depiction in AofA of course, being a different fiction with a different agenda.)

TIA!

andrewcriddle · 09-29-2004, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magdlyn

Somewhere I read, Simon is referred to as "pebble" and Jesus goes on to say, "on this rock," which is a different word, by one vowel.

Petros, Petras, Petrus? Someone got the original Greek? B/c I read it seems to suggest Peter is not the rock, just a pebble, and the church will be built on a larger rock. (As Peter was pretty darn stupid, with little true faith in the gospels. His depiction in AofA of course, being a different fiction with a different agenda.)

TIA!

In Matthew 16:18 Peter is PETROS in Greek
while Rock is PETRA

although the words have similar meanings
PETRA can be rendered 'large rock' and
PETROS 'small rock'.

However if Peter goes back to Aramiaic Cephas
as the NT claims then this distinction would not
have applied in that language where the same
word would have been used for Cephas and Rock.

Andrew Criddle

CX · 09-29-2004, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

In Matthew 16:18 Peter is PETROS in Greek
while Rock is PETRA

although the words have similar meanings
PETRA can be rendered 'large rock' and
PETROS 'small rock'.

However if Peter goes back to Aramiaic Cephas
as the NT claims then this distinction would not
have applied in that language where the same
word would have been used for Cephas and Rock.

Andrew Criddle

According to L&S PETRA means "a rock, crag" and PETROS means "a piece of rock, a stone". (Liddell & Scott Abridged Greek-English Lexicon; p. 556). I'm not sure the connoation is between large and small or if a double entendre of the sort you imply is really intended. As to your claim that the NT claims a link between CEPHAS and PETROS I'm not sure that's so. Isn't really later readers who make this connection? Paul refers to a CEPHAS who may or may not be the same person as PETROS. The gospel accounts use SIMWN and PETROS. Paul shows no apparent knowledge of the Gospels. Consequently it is inaccurate to say that the NT claims CEPHAS and PETROS are linked.

Toto · 09-29-2004, 10:50 AM

We discussed this recently. (I knew I should have split that discussion off.)

Petra vs Petros and the post before it, which I will reproduce here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CX

I know we tangled over this once before and I suspect my position has softened, but what of the fact that Cephas and Peter have the same meaning? This is naturally the apologetic basis for equating the two (as well as providing Peter with primacy as the "rock" on which the church is built). I don't have access to an aramaic source for the etymology of Cephas, but PETRON definitely means rock. What of Cephas? Or am I making too much out of a coincidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

The Aramaic KYP' does mean "rock", so the two names mean basically the same thing, just as John and Theodore mean basically the same thing. It's unlikely that names are translated by meaning from one language to another. I know of no examples. No-one for example when Rock Hudson films went to foreign countries changed his name to something more local.

(It could be if it were seen as a title that then it might be translated, as in Augustus/Sebaste.)

"Cephas" is not part of the synoptic tradition. The name is only found (once) in GJohn. It's major use in the NT is by Paul -- and suddenly, in the middle of a passage dealing with Cephas, the text drifts in subject and uses the name Peter.

As I pointed out in round one, the names have been used in parallel in some xian literature, the example given was the Epistle of the Apostles, whose second chapter begins:

2 We, John, Thomas, Peter, Andrew, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Nathanael, Judas Zelotes, and Cephas, write unto the churches of the east and the west, of the north and the south declaring . . .

Since you asked, I did a quick Google search with "cephas peter" and got this:

a pdf file

which I will now have to digest for relevance.

spin

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

For what it is worth, this is the Catholic position

Use of Peter as a proper name

Quote:

Peter the Rock

Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock." The Jews would give other names taken from nature, such as Barak "lightning," (Judg. 4:6), Deborah ("bee," Gen. 35:8), and Rachel ("ewe," Gen. 29:16), but never "Rock." In the New Testament James and John were nicknamed Boanerges, meaning "Sons of Thunder," by Christ, but that was never regularly used in place of their original names, and it certainly was not given as a new name. But in the case of Simon-bar-Jonah, his new name Kephas (Greek: Petros) definitely replaced the old.

Look at the scene

Not only was there significance in Simon being given a new and unusual name, but the place where Jesus solemnly conferred it upon Peter was also important. It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18).

. . .

Look at the Aramaic

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while "rock" is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra?

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, "You will be called Cephas"). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church."

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of "small stone" and "large rock" in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church."

Arthur Drews in The Legend of St Peter thinks that Peter (at least the St. Peter who carries the keys to the gate of heaven) was a mythological construct based on Janus and Mithra.

If Rock was a title and not a name, it would make sense to translate it from or to Aramaic / Greek.

Mathetes · 09-29-2004, 10:54 AM

Somewhere I've read (maybe in these boards?) that Petros actually has a meaning in Aramaic, something like "first born", and that Petros meaning "rock" (and the subsequent identification of Kephas and Petros) was a confusion made by Greek speakers.

I'll try to dig for the reference, so as not to look like speaking out of my butt...

Magdlyn · 09-29-2004, 11:08 AM

I knew I could count on you guys! :love:

Now, Jesus says, Simon Bar-Jonah [sign of Jonah anyone?], you are a pebble, and on this cliff, I will build my church.

Which ironically is followed just a few verses later by yet another new name for Petros: Satan!

Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
Mat 16:14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter [or a pebble], and [or but?] on this rock [huge cliff] I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."[on earth as it is in heaven banality]
Mat 16:20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.[shhh! just our secret, boys!]
Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. [sign of Jonah again?]
Mat 16:22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you."
Mat 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men."

How confusingly ironic is that? What happened to his "rock?" Poor Simon, being at the short end of Jesus's fickle stick.

Magdlyn · 09-29-2004, 11:25 AM

from toto's Catholic quote:

Quote:

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek,

Is this idea not controversial? I did not know this was Catholic doctrine!

Quote:

there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros.

This seems kind of silly. Why not just leave it in the Aramiac, and say, "-you are Cephas (which means petra or petros)."? Certainly the euangelists were not above using Aramaic and translating it for the Greek reader, as in talitha cum or lama sabachthani. Why not here, hm?

Oh, I see, GJohn has made this "correction" and does just this, no doubt, b/c he was just as confused as I am by Matthew! Wow. LOL

Quote:

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of "small stone" and "large rock" in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]).

So [some?] Catholic scholars and [at least one] Protestant scholar make this distinction between the changing uses of petros and petra. Large/small or male/female. But is it true or not? Should be easy enough to find out, shouldn't it?

Also, the quote remarks Jesus renamed Simon: Peter at their first mtg in GJohn 1:42. But in Matthew, it takes Jesus much longer to do this. He calls Simon as a disciple in chapter 4, renames him not until chap 16, and then immediately calls him Satan! LOL :Cheeky:

andrewcriddle · 09-29-2004, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CX

. As to your claim that the NT claims a link between CEPHAS and PETROS I'm not sure that's so. Isn't really later readers who make this connection? Paul refers to a CEPHAS who may or may not be the same person as PETROS. The gospel accounts use SIMWN and PETROS. Paul shows no apparent knowledge of the Gospels. Consequently it is inaccurate to say that the NT claims CEPHAS and PETROS are linked.

John 1:42 seems to link Peter and Cephas pretty firmly.

Andrew Criddle

Toto · 09-29-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

John 1:42 seems to link Peter and Cephas pretty firmly.

Andrew Criddle

42And he brought him to Jesus.
Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter).

Or in the KJV:

And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, a stone.

There are no quote marks in the original text, of course.

The last phrase looks like a scribal side note copied into the text. But it does seem to connect Peter and Cephas.

andrewcriddle · 09-29-2004, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mathetes

Somewhere I've read (maybe in these boards?) that Petros actually has a meaning in Aramaic, something like "first born", and that Petros meaning "rock" (and the subsequent identification of Kephas and Petros) was a confusion made by Greek speakers.

I'll try to dig for the reference, so as not to look like speaking out of my butt...

Reposting post to earlier thread

In Hebrew there is a form PeTeR with IIUC a similar word in Syriac/Aramaic.
It means literally 'that which breaks forth' and is used for firstborn in a very biological sense usually literally in the phrase 'that which breaks open the womb' but sometimes just 'that which breaks forth'
The usual word for firstborn in Hebrew is BeKoR with again a similar syriac form, unlike PeTeR it can be used for firstborn in a sense wider than the biological and was used for personal names in the OT (Bechorath Bocheru) whereas PeTeR was not.

IMO it would have been possible for someone to be called Peter in Aramaic by their parents for being the mothers first child, although IIUC there is no evidence this happened. I have grave doubts if someone could be called Peter in Aramaic for being metaphorically first-born, (eg first and most prominent disciple), or whether any Hebrew/Aramaic speaker could have thought this to be a plausible origin of such a name.

Andrew Criddle

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09-29-2004, 10:54 AM	#5
Mathetes Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spaniard living in Silicon Valley Posts: 539	Somewhere I've read (maybe in these boards?) that Petros actually has a meaning in Aramaic, something like "first born", and that Petros meaning "rock" (and the subsequent identification of Kephas and Petros) was a confusion made by Greek speakers. I'll try to dig for the reference, so as not to look like speaking out of my butt...

09-29-2004, 11:08 AM	#6
Magdlyn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 2,230	I knew I could count on you guys! :love: Now, Jesus says, Simon Bar-Jonah [sign of Jonah anyone?], you are a pebble, and on this cliff, I will build my church. Which ironically is followed just a few verses later by yet another new name for Petros: Satan! Mat 16:13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?" Mat 16:14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Mat 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter [or a pebble], and [or but?] on this rock [huge cliff] I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."[on earth as it is in heaven banality] Mat 16:20 Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.[shhh! just our secret, boys!] Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. [sign of Jonah again?] Mat 16:22 And Peter took him and began to rebuke him, saying, "God forbid, Lord! This shall never happen to you." Mat 16:23 But he turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men." How confusingly ironic is that? What happened to his "rock?" Poor Simon, being at the short end of Jesus's fickle stick.

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