Johnny Skeptic

Regarding Calvinism, Wikipedia says “In this view, all people are entirely at the mercy of God, who would be just in condemning all people for their sins but has chosen to be merciful to some in order to bring glory to his own name. One person is saved while another is condemned, not because of a willingness, a faith, or any other virtue in the first person, but because God sovereignly chose to have mercy on him. Although the person must act in order to believe and to be saved, this obedience of faith is God's gift according to Calvinism, and thus God accomplishes the salvation of sinners.”

However, the Bible teaches against Calvinism. Matthew 7:16-23 say “Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Mark 3:22-23 say “And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?” Matthew 7:16-23 has to be referring to Christians who have lost their salvation because Mark 3:22-23 indicates that only Christians can cast out devils. Since the texts say that a person can lose his salvation, from a Biblical perspective, who becomes saved is mankind’s choice, not God’s choice.

Helpmabob

Hi Johnny - From Wikipedia: Though it is often over-emphasized by its detractors, Calvinism is perhaps best known for its doctrines of predestination and election.

Your post covers the predestination and election considerations. Practically, however, Calvinism admits that there is no human input in salvation - it is all grace from God.I think this refers to people who would term themselves christians but were not born again of the Spirit. They were not 'known' by Christ at the time of the incident. There is no implication that they previously had been.

Mikezrh

Johnny, you've hit on one of the great theological debates: Can a person lose their salvation? Calvinism says salvation can't be lost because it's something that only God determines & confers & never repeals. Arminianism says salvation can be lost if a person chooses to be "unfaithful". There is supporting evidence for both positions to be found in the NT, hence a serious contradiction exists. If one follows the Calvinist thought to its logical conclusion, man doesn't have free-will & we are all merely puppets of an omnipotent, omniscient God. If one follows the Arminian thought to its logical conclusion, we keep our free-will but God loses his omnipotence & omniscience. Why do such contradictions exist in the NT? For a good read on how Christian theology (or mythology) evolved, you might want to try "Who Wrote the New Testament" by Burton L. Mack. Mack has been labeled a radical by fundamentalists, a sure sign that he's touched some nerves, but he puts together a fuller picture of the historical development of Christianity than what is presented by the canonized scriptures themselves (or their fundamentalist proponents). Once one grasps the way in which Christianity evolved, it's far easier to understand why the NT is such a theological hotch-potch.

Happy hunting!

Mike

Johnny Skeptic

If Calvinism is true, how do the elect know that they are among the elect?

post tenebras lux

They don't, well not until they're dead anyway.

mdarus

Calvinism comes in many flavors. Some will say, once you experience salvation, you then realize you are one of the elect. One common image is that salvation is like walking through an arch. As you approach faith in Christ you see one side of the arch. It says, "Whosoever will, may come." After you pass through the arch, you turn around and read the other side, "Elect from the foundation of the world."

Mikezrh

Yes, I've also heard this analogy before but, in my experience, I saw no arch nor have I met any Christian who has. Johnny's question "How do the elect know they are among the elect" is an excellent one. I'd add the following qualification to the question: "How do the living elect know they are among the elect?". Is it really necessary for a believer to die before he discovers whether or not he gets eternal life? How can the believer "know" with absolute certainty that he has salvation while he is alive? (Here I am using the generally accepted definition of what it means to "know" something.) I wonder if there are any theists out there who can answer this question satisfactorily?

Mike

Edward Gorey

You know if you are saved if you follow the criteria for being saved as layed out in the NT.

dongiovanni1976x

No one born of God commits sin; for God's nature abides in him, and he cannot sin because he is born of God. I John 3:9

pas gennao ek theos poieo ou hamartia hoti autos sperma meno en autos kai ou dunamai hamartano hoti gennao ek theos

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever. 1 Peter 1:23

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 7:18

God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:2

Seems like it is hard for a Christian to argue against the fact that once you are born into God's family you can ever backslide but I have heard cases from both camps.

Mikezrh

Yes, it's interesting that so much needed to be said about sin & its forgiveness in the NT considering the "sinless" nature of the "new man".

Johnny's question was asking how do the elect "know" they are among the elect. To my understanding, there are three criteria that need to be fulfilled in order for us to say we "know" something. (1) That "something" must be true; (2) We must believe that "something" to be true; (3) We must have evidence/reason/justification for that "something". It seems to me that unless the believer can get a sneak preview of the Lamb's Book of Life he cannot "know" that it is true that he has salvation. And with only two of the three criteria fulfilled, the most that he can say is that he "believes" he has salvation. We can discuss the numerous texts that concern the works of a "saved" person but, IMO, it doesn't bring us any closer to knowing whether someone has salvation or not.

Comments?

Mike