Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Patcher · 03-09-2005, 10:48 AM

I've been reading about the origins of the NT, but cannot figure out who first thought them to be true? Who was the first guy (group of people) to say "Hey, this must not just be a story, I think it REALLY happened! Better change the way I'm livin', and I'm even willing to die for this new truth!" If they are literary works of the time, why in the world and how could anyone mistake them for something true?

Godless Wonder · 03-09-2005, 11:01 AM

How can anyone think Scientology is true? How can anyone think Mormonism is true?

Hypothesis: People are more stupid than you thought was possible.

What predictions does such a hypothesis lead to?

PoodleLovinPessimist · 03-09-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godless Wonder

Hypothesis: People are more stupid than you thought was possible.

"There are only two things that are infinte: The universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

Toto · 03-09-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patcher

I've been reading about the origins of the NT, but cannot figure out who first thought them to be true? Who was the first guy (group of people) to say "Hey, this must not just be a story, I think it REALLY happened! Better change the way I'm livin', and I'm even willing to die for this new truth!" If they are literary works of the time, why in the world and how could anyone mistake them for something true?

I assume that you mean "literally true" as opposed to "spiritually true on a higher plane". The martyrs who died (if any) died because they did not sacrifice to the Roman gods, not because they held to a literal interpretation of the Bible.

My guess would be Irenaeus was among the first to decide that a literal interpretation of the NT was required. The "orthodox" Christians about that time were engaged in ideological warfare with gnostics and heretics, and needed to invent historical reasons for their interpretation of Christianity, so they needed to show a line of succession from Jesus through disciples through church elders to themselves.

There is more about this at www.jesuspuzzle.com

someotherguy · 03-09-2005, 11:37 AM

This thread seems like it would be more appropriate in BC&H. Off we go!

someotherguy

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Patcher · 03-09-2005, 12:10 PM

Quote:

I assume that you mean "literally true" as opposed to "spiritually true on a higher plane".

So this is how it started out? Do we have any documentation about how the early church interpreted scripture? (I have not gone to the link you provided yet, I'll do that now, thanks!)

Quote:

The martyrs who died (if any) died because they did not sacrifice to the Roman gods, not because they held to a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Never knew that. But I had wondered why such hostility towards early Christians.

Patcher · 03-09-2005, 12:14 PM

I guess I wonder, too, who pushed for it to be taken as truth? Documentation of others earlier than Irenaeus? (I've read a lot, but I keep skipping around.)

Godless Wonder · 03-09-2005, 12:58 PM

A fool born every minute and two to take him. I figure it was a scam from the get go. In Acts, Peter kills Ananias and Sapphira for their money, and blames God, or at least the made up story is about people who got killed by God for failing to give money, presumably a story designed to cow people into giving money to the church. So I figure the whole thing was a scam to get money right fromt he start. Benny Hinn is following the tradition of the original church perfectly. But I'm no Bible scholar, so I should probably not be posting in here, but this is where the thread got moved.

Toto · 03-09-2005, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patcher

I guess I wonder, too, who pushed for it to be taken as truth? Documentation of others earlier than Irenaeus? (I've read a lot, but I keep skipping around.)

The documents that we have are the ones that the church decided to preserve. The whole area is murky and full of faith-based conclusions and imaginative reconstructions.

The best source for original writings is www.earlychristianwritings.com

Patcher · 03-09-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I assume that you mean "literally true" as opposed to "spiritually true on a higher plane". The martyrs who died (if any) died because they did not sacrifice to the Roman gods, not because they held to a literal interpretation of the Bible.

My guess would be Irenaeus was among the first to decide that a literal interpretation of the NT was required. The "orthodox" Christians about that time were engaged in ideological warfare with gnostics and heretics, and needed to invent historical reasons for their interpretation of Christianity, so they needed to show a line of succession from Jesus through disciples through church elders to themselves.

There is more about this at www.jesuspuzzle.com

Oh wow, I just realized that the gospels were written after many of the other NT books! And in all my reading of the NT over the years, it never dawned on me that there never was reference to a historical Jesus in any of the books! It's kinda like re-watching Ghost with Bruce Willis and realizing that he was never actually interacting with anyone the whole time!

As pointed out by muTron the homeless, I meant The Sixth Sense! Thanks, MuTron!

03-09-2005, 10:48 AM	#1
Patcher Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Northern Mississippi Posts: 579	How can the NT have been mistaken for truth? I've been reading about the origins of the NT, but cannot figure out who first thought them to be true? Who was the first guy (group of people) to say "Hey, this must not just be a story, I think it REALLY happened! Better change the way I'm livin', and I'm even willing to die for this new truth!" If they are literary works of the time, why in the world and how could anyone mistake them for something true?

03-09-2005, 11:37 AM	#5
someotherguy Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,836	Notice: Thread Move This thread seems like it would be more appropriate in BC&H. Off we go! someotherguy EoG Moderator

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03-09-2005, 11:01 AM	#2
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	How can anyone think Scientology is true? How can anyone think Mormonism is true? Hypothesis: People are more stupid than you thought was possible. What predictions does such a hypothesis lead to?

03-09-2005, 12:14 PM	#7
Patcher Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Northern Mississippi Posts: 579	I guess I wonder, too, who pushed for it to be taken as truth? Documentation of others earlier than Irenaeus? (I've read a lot, but I keep skipping around.)

03-09-2005, 12:58 PM	#8
Godless Wonder Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,197	A fool born every minute and two to take him. I figure it was a scam from the get go. In Acts, Peter kills Ananias and Sapphira for their money, and blames God, or at least the made up story is about people who got killed by God for failing to give money, presumably a story designed to cow people into giving money to the church. So I figure the whole thing was a scam to get money right fromt he start. Benny Hinn is following the tradition of the original church perfectly. But I'm no Bible scholar, so I should probably not be posting in here, but this is where the thread got moved.

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