Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-14-2007, 11:49 AM

The question is unknowable. If you assume that the gospels are inerrant, you are assuming that everything came from Jesus. For the rest of us, the saying might have existed before they were written down, but what difference does it make? The only difference is whether the gospel writer was original and creative, or whether he or she drew on existing sayings, but in either case, the preexistence of the sayings does not prove anything about the existence of Jesus, one way or the other.

So I picked 0-100, in spite of the fact that I like cats (poor Schrodinger's cat!)

Ben C Smith · 05-14-2007, 11:53 AM

I voted the middle range (34%-66%).

Paul preserves a wide variety of sayings, most of them not necessarily attributed to Jesus (as per the OP). (Where Malachi151 got the idea that Paul preserved only the words of institution one can only guess.) See especially 1 Corinthians and Romans 12-13. James likewise preserves many sayings that also found their way into the sermon on the mount (or plain). I think that the synoptic apocalypse can be shown to have predated the synoptics (using Paul, the Didache, and internal considerations; see Theissen, The Gospels in Context (or via: amazon.co.uk), and Garrow, The Gospel of Matthew's Dependence on the Didache (or via: amazon.co.uk)). If Q existed, then of course a whole swath of sayings had a life of their own before the synoptics.

Ben.

View Poll Results: How many of the sayings preceded the Synoptics?
0% -- No more than the dialogue in a Michael Crichton book.	0	0%
1-33% -- Eh, a little bit.	1	12.50%
34-66% -- Meh, quite a bit.	3	37.50%
67-100% -- Yeah, a whole lot!	0	0%
0-100% -- Now where is that damn cat Schrodinger had...	4	50.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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05-14-2007, 11:49 AM	#11
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	The question is unknowable. If you assume that the gospels are inerrant, you are assuming that everything came from Jesus. For the rest of us, the saying might have existed before they were written down, but what difference does it make? The only difference is whether the gospel writer was original and creative, or whether he or she drew on existing sayings, but in either case, the preexistence of the sayings does not prove anything about the existence of Jesus, one way or the other. So I picked 0-100, in spite of the fact that I like cats (poor Schrodinger's cat!)

05-14-2007, 11:53 AM	#12
Ben C Smith Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Midwest Posts: 4,787	I voted the middle range (34%-66%). Paul preserves a wide variety of sayings, most of them not necessarily attributed to Jesus (as per the OP). (Where Malachi151 got the idea that Paul preserved only the words of institution one can only guess.) See especially 1 Corinthians and Romans 12-13. James likewise preserves many sayings that also found their way into the sermon on the mount (or plain). I think that the synoptic apocalypse can be shown to have predated the synoptics (using Paul, the Didache, and internal considerations; see Theissen, The Gospels in Context (or via: amazon.co.uk), and Garrow, The Gospel of Matthew's Dependence on the Didache (or via: amazon.co.uk)). If Q existed, then of course a whole swath of sayings had a life of their own before the synoptics. Ben.

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