sweetpea7

:banghead: I am talking about how life got started as well. I think it is a silly waste of time to rank these ideas. Why is it difficult for you to accept the idea that I just don't know how life began?
Thanks for the lesson. Aliens and Smurfette creating life is no more unreasonable than god creating life.

sschlichter

You do not see a relationship between reasoning and probability?

A person is convicted of murder and put to death based on probability. How can you claim to be a person of reason and not see that aliens are life that must have also been created or sprang out of nothing as well or they were created by aliens which must have sprang out of nothing as well.

I admire an agnostics desire to sit on the pot without taking a dump, but when you claim there is no evidence of God in the face of all of creation, you fail to see that you just took one.

I find it much easier to beleive that God exists and uses identifiable and cultural human tokens (such as the long hair coming from a Nazirite vow) to reveal himself and his will. I would expect as much from him. I would also expect his decrees to be reflective of his character. His desire to ensure that slaves are not harmed, foreigners are treated respectfully, and his people are not subjected to permanent servitude.

sweetpea7

Sigh. How can you claim to be a person of reason and not see that GOD is life that must have also been created or sprang out of nothing as well or he was created by aliens which must have sprang out of nothing as well?

Did you have to use such a gross analogy?

Great for you! I don't. I also have much higher expectations for god than anything that is described about god in the bible. If hell is reflective of his character, then I want no part of him.

Zenaphobe

Sure, we could also believe the same God promised to flood the earth to the mountaintops and kill everything but what got on a boat and leave no evidence that such an event even transpired. We could believe Muhammad had an angel dictate Allah's revelation to him. We could allow any number of crazy things, but for some reason I am willing to wager that you dismiss all the crazy claims made by those other peoples "revelations."

Sure we can believe that. We could believe that God sent an angel to Joseph Smith with another load of fantastic stories that defy the laws of nature, but you are not going to accept the Book of Mormon's claims as having truly occurred are you?


Because it appears that once a certain point in time arrived, the God of fireworks and wonders decided some anonymous writings of fantastic stories were sufficient evidence for everyone henceforth.



You have a very generous interpretation going there, but I believe an all powerful God could reveal itself without any misunderstandings arising in the first place. I am afraid I am just guilty of expecting someone almighty to avoid having his plan look like the creation of some of his creatures.

All I can tell you is that when I learned to study the Bible it was pretty much agreed on that unless something was an obvious metaphor it was to be taken literally.

That's the thing with the Bible, it doesn't come with an inspired commentary to tell you how to understand it, why else are there as many division in Christendom as there are, along with various cults?

There is no objective way to ascertain what method of Bible interpretation Yahweh intended.

At least we agree on one thing.

sschlichter

I can see that originally, there must have been something eternal and indivisible. Logic requires it. Consider Aristotle's un-movable mover or Aquinas 5 ways.

argument from motion.

Everything that is in motion is put into motion by a mover which cannot be itself. “But this cannot go on into infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover.” So according to Aquinas there must be a first mover, which is how we define God, because there cannot be an infinite regression of movers putting objects into motion.

argument from causation

Aquinas’s second argument is that of causation. There exist things which are caused. “There is no cause known (neither is it, indeed possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself: for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible.” It is impossible to go on into infinity with efficient causes because of the very definition of efficient causes: the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, which is the cause of the ultimate cause. No matter how many intermediate causes there are, a first and an ultimate cause always exist. The cause cannot be taken away because the effect is removed with it

argument of necessity.

1. Every being that exists is either contingent or necessary.
2. Not every being can be a contingent.
3. Therefore there exists a necessary being upon which the contingent beings depend.
4. A necessary being on which all contingent beings exist is what we mean by God.
5. Therefore, God exists.

to mention a few that seem 'reason'able to me.

No, I probably could have come up with something less offensive. Sorry.

I am curious why you have an expectation of God when you see no evidence he exists.

People want to be separated from God and he gives them exactly what they want.

Anyway, this has little to do with slavery anymore.

Toto

This thread has little to do with BCH at this point. Please start new threads in the appropriate fora if you want to continue with these off topic trends.

sweetpea7

Good answer, sschlicter. I'm too tired to answer intelligently tonight. Tomorrow perhaps, sorry.

What I should have said is that if god exists, then I would expect a much different description of him than what is depicted in the bible. I would also expect this world to be a hell of a lot better. Yeah, the conversation has drifted from slavery. Maybe we could continue on another thread?

Have a good night and thanks for the discussion.

sschlichter

the question is whether any of those are hard to beleive once you beleive that God exists. You cited a few examples that I find very plausible tools for a personal God to use to communicate in the context of a specific culture.

Mohammed had no miracles backing up his claims to authority as every other prophet does. Mohammed fulfilled no prophetic function. He fulfilled no prophecy and prophesied about nothing. Mohammed received his revelation in private whispers in a cave while the authority of Jesus was displayed through miracles that dsiplayed his power over hunger, demons, nature, men, sickness, and death. The apostles authority was given as a group. Not one man. Paul quotes Luke as Scripture, Peter quotes Paul as Scripture, Jude quotes Peter as Scripture. They all recognize the authority of the Old Testament. Jesus recognized the authority of the Old Testament.

Jesus claimed to be God and predicted his death, burial, and resurrection.

Mohammed claimed that Jesus was not God.

No, I am not for similar reasons. However, if the bible contains truth you could expect it to be surrounded by lies. You will noticve that each of the examples you gave claims that the Bible is the Word of God (as Mohammed and Joseph Smith have both done) and then claimed that they have more authority.

they were not really provided for evidence. they were for instruction. I do not think God is out to prove himself. He reveals himself to those who ask.

yeah, I can see that. There are divisions in Christendom but they are never about matters of real importance. (even though we claim that they are really important). Cults are usualy a matter of authority, not interpretation.

there you go, it took 2 weeks but we agree on some matters.

sschlichter

thank you, I enjoyed it - as tangential as it was. good night.

WVIncagold

NO it is not A.D.D its the fact that none of the three of you have answered the question and are doing mental gymnastics to rationalize that which you know to be wrong is astounding. there is a great distinction between a slave and paid servant or bondsman and you know it. You just won't admit that attrocities like slavery was okay in your perfect word of god. How is it we today are moraly superior to your god when we have outlawed slavery (in all its wonderfull forms) today?