Sven

Since I don't know anyone here who makes this claim, it seems that you've invented a new strawman. O wait... I've heard this strawman already at least a dozen times. So, sorry, no new invention.

What exactly is not civil about this debate?

OK, maybe this: Why do Christians so often pretend that they are persecuted? If you don't want to defend your claims, don't post them. It's as easy as this.

ksen

Let me introduce you to just such a person:

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...38&postcount=2

So I did not create a strawman argument.

You've been very civil. I was merely postulating what Faithful's answer was going to be.

I don't claim to be persecuted. See my answer above.

Sven

The post you linked to is clearly hyperbole. If you asked him directly, I highly doubt he would argue that everything in the bible is either myth or a lie (well, and additionally we have to ask which definition of myth he uses).

Thanks. I don't always achieve this.

You should have perhaps made more clear that it does not necessarily represent your view.

GenesisNemesis

Maybe you've lied to yourselves by believing myth?
:wave:

ksen

Maybe I have.

Of course the non-Theists could be lying to themselves as well. :wave:

ksen

It's not clear to me that he was using hyperbole. But I agree, it'd be better to ask him outright.

Neither do I.

I should have and I apologize for the confusion. :blush:

aa5874

So, if you have faith that your seed will grow into a plant, and the seed never becomes a plant, what was the purpose of your faith?

A seed germinates when the conditions for germination are present, faith is not one of those conditions.

Again, if a couple has faith that they will have a child and they never have a child, is that 'nothing 'short of a miracle?

A child is conceived when the conditions for conception are satisfied, faith is not one of those conditions. In fact, some unwanted pregnancies occur because some have 'faith' they will never have a child, although they engage in sexual activity.

Wads4

Silence is evidence (not proof) of absence (of God). God is a special case; he is omnibenevolent and omnipresent, and therefore is morally obligated to reply when spoken to by one of his beloved creatures whom he created specially,--apart from which it would just be good manners. (And I am sure an omnipotent God can cope with lots of questions at once).

Wads4

Speaking as a doctor and Obstetrician I agree it is an astounding process. However, what about the ones that go wrong, and do not belong in your utopian obstetric world? One of my Boxer bitches has just delivered 9 live puppies--she is a good little breeder (second litter). My daughter has just managed to produce an underweight live infant 2 weeks premature, after failed normal vaginal delivery, failed forceps delivery, and eventual Caesarian section, with heavy blood loss, and extensive tearing after failed vaginal delivery. But for the Doctors she and the baby would both be dead, as the infant was trapped inside by the umbilical cord being wrapped around its neck.
In a pre scientific age, natural selection would have eliminated both of them.
So why don't you consider all these aspects before shouting "miracle"?

ksen

Since we seem to be talking about the biblical God then perhaps you wouldn't mind showing biblical proof that:

1) God is omnibenevolent beyond the general benevolence of letting us all live,

2) That everything on earth without exception are His "beloved" creatures given that the Bible explicitly says that God "hates" those who work iniquity, and

3) That God is morally obligated to reply (what form of reply is He requiered to make?) to us when spoken to.

I look forward to your response, thanks!