Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 04-13-2005, 07:50 AM

Cliff Carrington, who has long worked on Josephus-Gospels correspondences, has a page on the fire of Rome that allegedly triggered the Neronian persecution. We talk about that from time to time here, so just wanted to alert posters to this resource.

Ted Hoffman · 04-13-2005, 10:38 AM

Thanks Vork,
I need to read that. I recently read Darrel Doughty's take on it.
By the way, is Darrel Doughty a radical. Radical in the sense of Herman Detering - denying the historicity of Paul etc etc?

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-13-2005, 12:57 PM

A very enlightening read. Thanks, Vork.

John A. Broussard · 04-13-2005, 01:22 PM

An excellent example of sound and readable scholarship. It gives a very different--and believable--view of Nero, the fire during his reign, and the possibilty of any Christian involvement.

spin · 04-13-2005, 02:16 PM

Seems like Cliff's read our discussions on the topic.

andrewcriddle · 04-13-2005, 02:59 PM

I think this may be misleading

Quote:

The Fantastic details of the sufferings of the Christians - dressed in animal hides and torn apart by dogs, crucified, and used as human torches - fits the pornographic masochistic obsession of the early Church. The sordid details of flesh torn and blood copiously shed is repulsive to the modern mind. For some reason the early Church wallowed in graphic descriptions of virgins violated and gored to death by bulls, old men crucified suffering horrific tortures and not to mention the over-fed lions of the Colosseum

Although there is certainly a strong tendency to the lurid in Christian martyrdom accounts the passage in Tacitus is not really similar to these accounts.

Typical Christian martyrdoms combine lurid tortures with the refusal of the victims to renounce their faith. If the Tacitus passage was a Christian martyrdom written 'in reverse' then one would expect some references to the 'blind obstinacy' of the victims.

lurid details without any perseverance in the faith are not typical martyrdoms at all.

Andrew Criddle

spin · 04-13-2005, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

lurid details without any perseverance in the faith are not typical martyrdoms at all.

They are portayed as dying christians. They died because they were christians. They were therefore martyrs. The lurid details jazz up the martyrdom as was the wont.

spin

andrewcriddle · 04-13-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

They are portayed as dying christians. They died because they were christians. They were therefore martyrs. The lurid details jazz up the martyrdom as was the wont.

spin

The lurid details normally 'jazz up' the endurance of the marty and his or her refusal to renounce the faith which just isn't present here.

Which martyrdom accounts in your opinion most resemble the account in Tacitus ?

spin · 04-13-2005, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

The lurid details normally 'jazz up' the endurance of the marty and his or her refusal to renounce the faith which just isn't present here.

Which martyrdom accounts in your opinion most resemble the account in Tacitus ?

The text is supposed to be written by Tacitus. Does the interpolator have to say, "this is a piece of christian propaganda and I'm unable to disguise the fact that I can't make it look at all like it was written by a pagan?"

spin

Vorkosigan · 04-13-2005, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ted Hoffman

Thanks Vork,
I need to read that. I recently read Darrel Doughty's take on it.
By the way, is Darrel Doughty a radical. Radical in the sense of Herman Detering - denying the historicity of Paul etc etc?

Yes, I think so.

04-13-2005, 07:50 AM	#1
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Tacitus, Nero, Christians, Fire...Carrington's Page on the Testamonium Tacitus Cliff Carrington, who has long worked on Josephus-Gospels correspondences, has a page on the fire of Rome that allegedly triggered the Neronian persecution. We talk about that from time to time here, so just wanted to alert posters to this resource.

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04-13-2005, 10:38 AM	#2
Ted Hoffman Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: "" Posts: 3,863	Thanks Vork, I need to read that. I recently read Darrel Doughty's take on it. By the way, is Darrel Doughty a radical. Radical in the sense of Herman Detering - denying the historicity of Paul etc etc?

04-13-2005, 12:57 PM	#3
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	A very enlightening read. Thanks, Vork.

04-13-2005, 01:22 PM	#4
John A. Broussard Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Hawaii Posts: 6,629	An excellent example of sound and readable scholarship. It gives a very different--and believable--view of Nero, the fire during his reign, and the possibilty of any Christian involvement.

04-13-2005, 02:16 PM	#5
spin Contributor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: nowhere Posts: 15,747	Seems like Cliff's read our discussions on the topic.

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