Cesc

I guess in the light of the OP I mean a "flesh and blood Jesus".

spamandham

'gnostic' is a very vague category. What you're referring to specifically is Docetism, such as that propagated by Marcion.

....and yes, it's true that many early Christians believed Jesus was what we might call a ghost - having the appearance of being flesh and blood at will, but not actually being flesh and blood.

mountainman

See the term docetic. (ex WIKI)

But the real question is how do we differentiate between a gnostic docetist and a person who thinks Clerk Jesus Kent is a fiction character?



Best wishes


Pete

Toto

mountainman: this is an official moderator request: Please stop using the phrase "Clerk Jesus Kent." Immediately.

Toto

This is easy. Pay attention.

A docetist thinks that if you saw Jesus, you would see a real person interacting with the world, but that he would actually be a phantom.

The "fictionalist" thinks that you would never see Jesus interacting with the world.

lycanthrope

hi,

may i know why?

thanks

Toto

The purpose of this board is to foster an intelligent discussion on real issues. The phrase in question is a flippant joke that might have been mildly amusing the first time we heard it, but has worn out its welcome and is now just mockery.

If someone wants to make a thoughtful, documented comparison between Jesus and Superman/Clark Kent, that would be welcome. But this constant repetition of a phrase is not the way to debate the issues.

mountainman

Could "docetic" be a christian euphemism for "fictional"?


Could you please provide some form of substantive citation for this opinion? Emperor Julian it might be argued was a "fictionalist", but did he claim to ever physically see Jesus interacting with the world?



Best wishes,



Pete

Ishtar

There's a very good book called Gnostic Paul: Gnostic Exegesis of the Pauline Letters by Elaine Pagels which examines his teachings alongside the Gnostic Valentinians. Elaine Pagels is Professor of Religion at Princeton.

Some other good writers on this subject include:

The Jesus Mysteries by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

Jesus and the Goddess by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold by Acharya S

The Myth of the Historical Jesus by Hayyim ben Yehoshua

Bible Myths and the Parallels in Other Religions by T W Doanne

The Jesus Puzzle by Earl Doherty

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviours by Kersey Graves

Any book by GRS Mead ....

That's just a handful of them....

I found it helpful to go back to the Mystery religions as practised in Eleusis in Greece, as well as all round the Mediterranean, to get a handle on where the Jewish and Christian Gnostics were coming from. Then I began to see Christianity not so much as a development of a Jewish religion - although those who formed and canonised the four gospels used "Jewish clothes" - but essentially, when it's naked, it's a Mediterranean myth.

Toto

Hello Ishtar, you've got quite a bibliography here, none of which actually answers the question posed about Eusebius and Constantine.

Please note that Kersey Graves' work is in the Internet Infidels Historic Library with all sorts of caveats and warnings: read this essay by Richard Carrier.