bopot

Numbers 33:4 (KJV) says:
So Yahweh recognizes that the Egyptian gods are in fact real and he directly interacts with them. They are obviously below him in the god hierarchy, but the text is clear: these are not mere statues or baubles to be dismissed, but actual usurpers of Yahweh's rightful obeisance, worthy not only of recognition, but of punishment.

Some translations appear to be concerned by this, so they try to wiggle out from under it by making it sound like Yahweh was merely passing judgment on the Egyptians' choice of gods. Some resort to more blatant revisionism than others...

TM clearly shows its bias:
CEV omits all mention of them:
But the large majority of translations make it clear that he is dealing with these other gods on a personal level, as you can check for yourself.

NIRV makes no bones about it:
NLT makes it sound like epic hand-to-hand combat:
Anyway, it looks like the Egyptian gods are real, which is good to know because I always thought they were pretty cool.

WishboneDawn

In my lay ministry class we approached the OT as the Hebrew Scriptures and the assumption was that yes, the Ancient Hebrews believed there were other gods and they were often acknowledge. It was just that YHWH always handed them their ass in a fight.

GakuseiDon

I think we need to be careful not to let our ideas about God influence how we read their ideas of gods back then. For example, Justin Martyr wrote that the pagan gods really did exist, except they were really demons:

since of old these evil demons, effecting apparitions of themselves, both defiled women and corrupted boys, and showed such fearful sights to men, that those who did not use their reason in judging of the actions that were done, were struck with terror; and being carried away by fear, and not knowing that these were demons, they called them gods

I suspect the early Israelites thought something similar, at least by the time the OT was actually written down.

bopot

I've always been under the impression that the Abrahamic religions recognize the Abrahamic god as the one true god, and all others as false gods akin to the golden calf. I know they recognize godlike beings (angels, demons), but I had no idea that the gods of completely separate pantheons were recognized as real (albeit illegitimate).

I guess it makes sense though; there's not much reason for religious warfare unless you genuinely fear your enemy's god(s). It places an even heavier burden on would-be converters, however. It's easier to say "My god is real, yours is false," than "My god is better than your god." To "prove" the former, you can destroy a bunch of holy sites and point to the lack of divine retribution from their god. To "prove" the latter, you need an argument.

rickP

Aren't you kind of forcing a later view into an older text? While Justin Martyr may have see the pagan gods as demons, there is nothing in the Hebrew scripture there that gives that indication that I can see.

bopot

It sounds like he's grasping for an escape clause.

GakuseiDon

No, I don't mean that they also thought of them as demons, but that it would be wrong for us to apply our modern notion of what the word 'God' meant back on them. The Bible appears to clearly state that other gods existed, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they were polytheists, at least when the Bible was put down in words. (Earlier than that, they may well have been). They appeared to be henotheists.

GakuseiDon

No, I think that it fitted in well with the beliefs of early Christianity: The Hebrew Scriptures were written before the earliest available pagan texts of the time, showing the primacy of the Hebrew god; the later pagan gods were demons 'inspired' by Hebrew scriptures, thus the pagan gods were actually demons. Christ came and overcame the demons, therefore overcoming the pagan gods. My guess is that this thinking would have been attractive to many with anti-Roman sentiment in those days.

WishboneDawn

Keep in mind that we gave the OT and Ancient Hebrew reading but once we got to the NT it was a Christian one (albeit a liberal one) and there was no idea of henotheism (thanks Gakuseidon!!) there.

bopot

It doesn't sound like you're disagreeing with me. The early Christians put their own spin on it, to make it fit their beliefs. But the text makes it clear that these are actual, distinct gods, not mere demonic tricksters. Christians don't get to demote them.